: DDN: 1) You've stated several times that there is nothing I can do to be saved but you have also stated several times that there are things (or THING) I MUST do in order to be saved. SO......which is it? Are there things I CAN do to be saved, MUST do to be saved, or is there NOTHING at all I can do to be saved? : McChick: All you need is FAITH and love, as faith without love is useless (1 Corinthians 13:2b)
: Romans 3:21-31 will basically answer your question. There is no good deed that you need to do to be saved, it is moreso a change of thought. There is more to just beleivng in Jesus, as Shaun said once. Even Satan believes in Jesus. Please do read the Bible references I have included, as God's Word puts it much better than I do.
: DDN:
: 1) Then there IS something I CAN do to be saved: I can HAVE FAITH and LOVE, correct? So…whenever someone says that there is NOTHING I can do to be saved – they are either mistaken or lying, correct? I am told frequently (even by the Bible itself) that there is NOTHING I can do to be saved.
: Therefore, according to you, the Bible is either mistaken or lying, correct?
What? No! The Bible would never lie. It may be me, not lying, but mistaken. Why would the Bible lie? "Can we boast then that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law" Romans 3:27-28 Does that explain it? They is nothing we can do to earn God's love. He loves each and everyone of us.
: 2) There are verses in the Bible that say faith and prayer ALONE are enough to accomplish ANYTHING – no mention of LOVE at all:
: Matt. [22] And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.
: Hmmmm. Looks like you’re wrong. Love is not a requirement for ANYTHING according to this verse.
I didn't mean to say that love is a requirement, but...
"And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody." 1 Corinthians 13:2b
"There are three things that will endure-faith, hope, and love- and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13
Is it possible to have faith without love? They are hand in hand. You don't need faith AND love. With faith comes love.
: 3) Romans 3:21-31 doesn’t say a damn thing about LOVE. It lists several requirments god has of us not one of which is love. They are as follows: having faith, believing in Jesus, and obeying the law.
I didn't say that it did. I said that 1 Cor 13 is about love (well I didn't explicitly say that though). I knew what Romans 3:21-31 says. and it says that obey the law is not a requirement. "But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight - not by obeying the law, but by the way promised in the scriptures long ago" Rom 3:21
: 4) You yourself have also added to the list of requirements: “change your thinking”, “believe in Jesus”, and “read Bible references”.
: Given all of the above, once again for the 8 millionth time, I must ask: What must I do in order to be “saved”? What does God require from us that we might be allowed into heaven? And where is the biblical passage that gives these requirements? So far we have:
: 1) Believe in Jesus
: 2) Change your thinking
: 3) Obey the Law
: 4) Have “faith”
: 5) Read Bible references
: Are there anymore requirements? Have we left anything out? If I passed this around to 10 random christian priests would they all concur that these were indeed the requirments (no more and no less) for winning God’s favor?
No, and nor do I. You made up the list from what I said. I did not say that you have to read the Bible to get saved. I was just suggesting that you read what I suggested to help answer your questions. I didn't say "obey the law" and nor did the Bible as I said above. In regards to "change your thinking", that's basically having faith, I was just trying to illustrate there that it is not a physical action or good deed that is required. In short all you need is faith. Faith that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Beleiving in Jesus is covered by faith, it need not be a separate category, I will explain what I mean by faith further down.
:Why does Stuart not concur with this list? Is he not “Born Again”, Saved, etc.?
I am sure he is born again. Even I did not concur with your list.
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: DDN: 2) Are all Jews that have lived and died after the arrival of Christ now in eternal Hell?
: McChick: If they have heard about Jesus and chosen to reject him, then I guess they are. It's sad.
: DDN: What do you mean by “heard about Jesus”. Do you mean to say that if they only heard his name used once in a complete sentence by someone standing next to them in a subway and then never followed up with a “belief in Jesus” (whatever that means), that they would consequently burn in hell eternally upon their death. That IS sad. Again, I’m compelled to ask:
: 1) How much do you need to “hear about Jesus” before your “rejection” of him will land you in Hell?
What I really wanted to say was "if they had heard The Word" but that I thought would confuse you. Basically, Shaun put it well in his post. I agree with what Shaun said.
: 2) What constitutes “rejection”? If the jew on the subway spent the rest of his life reading the Bible as a consequence of hearing the word “Jesus” on the subway, but his readings did not result in an understanding of Jesus, would he then be guilty of rejecting Jesus and subsequently be damned to eternal Hell?
That's hard to answer. That wouldn't happen anyway, where did you get that thought in your head? If he really wanted to find the Truth, he would. (Note: I am not saying that really wanting to find The Truth is a requirement) I don't really understand the question. And perhaps I don't know the answer, I'm not afraid to admit it. I don't know everything. God will judge this person, not me.
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: DDN: 3) Clearly there are languages that the Bible has not been translated into (as demonstrated by Nikhil and Floyd in our thread below).
: : http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/anything/messages/3873.html
: : If you have to be born again to get into heaven, and you have to know Jesus to be born again, and you have to read the Bible to know Jesus, how are people that speak such languages supposed to get into heaven?
: McChick: They may HEAR the Word, rather than read it. There are a great many illiterate people in these places who probably couldn't read it even if it was in their own language. There are missionaries around the world, spreading the Good News about Jesus, and there are Bible translaters too, who are working on translating the Bible for these people while also witnessing to them, and teaching them about Jesus.
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: DDN:
: 1) Could you reference the appropriate verse that says that reading the bible is not necessary if one has HEARD it instead?
Where does it say that reading the Bible is necessary for salvation?
: 2) Yes, we know that there are missionaries around the world blah blah blah blah blah………But you are begging the question – or intentionally avoiding it. Not every single freaking person on the planet has access to a missionary, and even if they did would that missionary necessarily IN ALL CASES know how to recite the entire Bible (or at least the key parts) to them in their native tongue. Not bloody likely, especially since we’ve already explained that translations into certain languages do not (and sometimes CANnot) exist – how is the missionary supposed read a non-existent book to them? So…..is the fate of such individuals eternal damnation in Hell?
There are people in the mission field learning the languages, and they do become proficient enough to explain the KEY parts, and even other parts.
The question is: If someone (like tribal people) has never heard the Gospel, are they going to Hell?
My answer is: I don't know, I think maybe. What does Shaun think?
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: DDN: 4) You've said that I have to be born again in order to know Jesus. You've also said that I have to know Jesus in order to be born again. Clearly this is a catch 22. How am I supposed to accomplish either assignment (getting born again or knowing Jesus) if both are prerequisites for the other?
: McChick: Well, if you've never heard of Jesus, then you obviously couldn't know him. I think it's moreso knowing about Jesus before you make a committment of faith, and then you develop a personal relationship with Him, getting to know him more and more.
: DDN: What do you mean you “think its moreso…”?
: Moreso WHAT? That you get born again in order to know Jesus, or moreso that you get to know Jesus to get born again? It seems to me that you are avoiding the whole question. Do you mean that you don’t KNOW how to resolve this contradiction? If you don’t know how to resolve this contradiction then how did you get born again or come to know Jesus? (I’m assuming you know jesus and are born agian, correct?)
I don't know everything, I too have questions, that I don't know the answer to, but we wont go into them. I grew up in a Christian family, so I heard the Gospel as I grew up. You hear the Gospel first, and then have faith.... Let's just pause here for an explanation of faith.
Having faith, to me, is believing in, loving, and trusting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Therefore the one thing you need is to be saved is faith, because if you have faith, you believe. Beleiving in Jesus is not enough as I said before even Satan believes in Jesus.
Okay, now back to where I was. Hear the Gospel, Have faith, Know Jesus. Hearing the Gospel is not what will save you, only faith will save you. Once you have faith, you will grow closer to Jesus (or in other words know Jesus more, let's not get picky that I used different words to meant the same thing). I am also not saying that knowing Jesus is the requirement. Have I made it clear yet? Faith will save you.
: Incidently you’ve just added some new tasks to our ever expanding list of things we CAN or MUST do to be saved. In fact, you’ve defined a whole new process that I have never heard of before nor seen explained in the Bible:
: Step 1: Hear about Jesus
: Step 2: Know about Jesus
: Step 3: Make a commitment of faith (undefined)
: Step 4: Develop a personal relationship with Jesus
: Step 5: Get to know him more and more
: Then, assumambly
: Step 6: Become born again
Ok, well, now faith is defined. And I have said that Steps 1,2,4 & 5, are not things you must do in order to get saved. Steps 3 and 6 though are synonomuos. The moment you have faith, you are born again.
: Again, I point out that this process is impossible to fullfill since it is a well established tenet of Christianity that one must become born again before being able to know Jesus. And again, I ask, how does one reconcile this dilemma?
I think I have answered this above earlier.
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: DDN: 5) You've stated that, in order to be saved and get into heaven, I have to confess to God in the form of Jesus. But you've also said that God is not currently IN the form of Jesus, so how am I supposed to make my confession? More importantly, how did YOU make YOUR confession. Did God make a special private appearance to you in the physical form of Jesus so that you could make your confession? How did you invoke such an appearance? Was there something you did to get this special attention?
: McChick: I can't speak for Shaun, but I have had no special appearances or anything. A bit of background: Jesus is in Heaven with God, and on earth through the Holy Spirit living in us (Christians).
: DDN: But you are begging the question again. Shaun has said that in order for me to become a Christian I must “confess to Jesus”. But if Jesus is not here in the physical form and he is not living inside of me through the Holy Spirit (since I’m not a christian yet), how in the hell am I supposed to talk (confess) to him?!
Talk to Him in Heaven. You are narrowing your mind, and seeing things on an Earthly perspective. He is in Heaven and can hear you. Remember nothing is impossible for God. Our human minds are too small to comprehend many things about God. Consider eternity for example. It is a difficult concept to understand. How God can listen to EVERYONE'S prayers, when there are so many people in the world? It's possible for God, we can't understand how he does it, we just believe that he does. "I don't understand, but somehow I believe" Paul Coleman -"Dear God" That's just a quote from a song.
: McChick: To talk to God or Jesus, all you need to do is pray, and He will hear you.
: DDN: Who’s “He”? God or Jesus? I thought I had to go through Jesus in order to get to God. Are you now saying I don’t need Jesus to reach God?
You do need Jesus to reach God. You can pray to God, through Jesus. Prayers often start with "Dear God" and finish with "in Jesus name, Amen"
:And, again, how is Jesus going to hear my prayer if he is not here with me in any capacity?
He knows your thoughts, he can hear everything you thing. He is not like humans he does not need audible sound waves to hear your prayer.
:Also, you have added yet another criteria to our list: “Prayer”. In order to get into heaven, I have to confess to Jesus, which now entails PRAYING to Jesus.
Naturally, praying to Jesus would follow the moment that you have faith. When you have faith, God will open your eyes and you will understand. When you have faith, you would want to pray. Prayer is not the way to get to Heaven. Faith is.
: We’re a long way from just having loving faith in Jesus in order to be saved (as you previously suggested). We need to pray, develop a relationship with Jesus, obey the law, change our thinking, read bible references, confess our sins, ……what else will be added? ……go to church, obey the ten commandments, love our neighbors, terrorize other cultures, bomb abortion clinics……..
I think I've already covered this by now.
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: DDN: 7) What constitutes a "sinful lifestyle"? How often can I sin (and to what degree) without being seen by God as living a "sinful lifestyle"?
: McChick: Any sin will be seen as a sinful lifestyle, …………………………………
: DDN: But this flatly contradicts what Shaun has told me. Shaun says that once you are born again you no longer live a sinful lifestyle but will still sin occasionaly because its impossible NOT to. Clearly he has drawn a distinction between “sinning” and “living a sinful lifestyle”. But you are saying that these two things are indistinguishable. Which of you am I to believe?
What Shaun said in reply to this question is the same as what I have said. "Living without Jesus, without your sins forgiven is a sinful lifestyle" I think I just complicated it a bit more for you. (See below)
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: McChick:…….but if you have faith in Jesus, God sees Jesus in you, not your sinful nature. Is that clear/understandable? I'm sure you'll soon tell me if it isn't.
: DDN: No, its not clear at all. I still don’t know what “faith in Jesus means”.
Okay, well I've explained faith now, I hope my explanation was clear enough. But did you also understand what I meant when I said that God sees Jesus in you and not your sinful nature. I don't know how to explain it clearer than that, but I'll try if you need me to.
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: DDN: 8) You've stated that the Bible is "crystal clear" (particularly on matters of salvation). But you have also stated that one must sometimes read it over again or ask someone for help in understanding it. Do you really believe it is fair to refer to a text as being "crystal clear" that has to be reread (perhaps many times) or that one must seek outside consultation on in order to understand? If so, how would you classify the instructions on a can of soda ("Pull Tab") or the on a traffic sign ("Left Lane Merges"). Would you refer to these instructions as "crystal clear"? Why? Do you have to reread them or ask for help in order to understand them? No? Then shouldn't we refer to these instructions as being "extra super duper crystal clear"?
: McChick: That's a good question. If Shaun was referring to the KJV Bible, then its true, it is sometimes difficult to understand, because of the Old English it uses. ………..
: DDN: Wrong. Its not difficult to understand just because of its Old English. Its mostly difficult to understand because it is so chalk full of errancy. Either way, its far far far from being “crystal clear” as this conversation we are having well demonstrates.
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: McChick:……. I don't want to get into the issue of what is the best version of the Bible to use, but some modern translations are: Contemporary English Version (CEV), New Living Translation (NLT), New International Version (NIV) and The Message. They are all pretty understandable.
: DDN: And all of these versions exist for every language on earth either in spoken or written form so that we can all be saved, right? Give me a break. I’m sorry McChick, but it is at this point that I am simply going to have to just come right out and call you a LIAR. You know damn good and well that pygmies don’t have the equivalent of a King James, NIV, CEV, and NLT version of the Bible. Is honesty a quality God expects of us?
WELL, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THE PYGMIES ARE! (Maybe that's because I'm not american, or not well versed in history) Did I say that the Pygmies have a KJV, NIV, CEV, or NLT versions? No I did not. I don't know if the Pygmies have a Bible translated into their language or not, but I'm sure something's happening. The places where Bible translation is going on, the translators work very hard to translate the Bible into their language, and also make it culturally relevant for them.
Please. I have not lied. Lying would be intentionally saying something I knew, at the time of saying it was incorrect. I have tried to tell you the truth. I have in no instance intentionally said a false or misleading statement. I may have unintentionally, but that is not lying. That is making a mistake. Mistakes are not necessarily sins. I endeavour to be honest.
