Nikhil: Are you an atheist DDN? DDN: I guess that depends on your definition of atheist. Some Christians, for example, would say I’m an atheist because I don’t have any desire whatsoever to flail around under a revival tent and yell “Praise Jesus!”. Assumably, your definition is more sophisticated than this. Whatever your definition is however, it probably is dependent on the word “God” for which I require a defintion as well. You haven’t supplied one, so I’ll have to supply my own: God – an ultimate unchanging reality that underlies all realities and from which all realities are derived from and are eternally a part of. Then the question of atheism becomes:
Do I believe in an ultimate unchanging reality that underlies all realities and from which all realities are derived from and are eternally a part of?
If this is the question, then the answer is: YES, I do. It’s a no-brainer. Proof:
Let A = There is such an ultimate, unchanging reality.
Assume ~A : There is NO such ultimate, unchanging reality.
Then ~A is the ultimate unchanging reality.
Therefore there IS such an ultimate, unchanging reality, namely ~A.
I find that most discussions about one’s definition of “God”, taken to their very ends, ultimately lead to proofs like the one above. And it is within this context that I KNOW there is God. How atheistic is THAT?
Outside of this reasoning, everyone is agnostic by definition because no one really KNOWS anything for an absolute certainty.
Nikhil: ……Just curious. I'm sure you're aware as how certain atheist governments (Mexico, Cambodia, Albania, China, to a lesser extent Turkey) have matched the worst excesses of any religious institution in history- and considering the Spanish Inquisition, that's saying a lot. Read Graham Greene's novel 'The Power and the Glory" for more. I used to be an atheist, and when i was an atheist I was less tolerant than I am now as a neo-Hindu. In my experience many of the most tolerant people I know are devoutly religious.
DDN: Yes, I’m aware of such horrors. People just suck in general. To quote my favorite philosopher:
“We’re a virus with shoes” - Bill Hicks.
But I do feel that a virus that has no religious inclinations is less desirable than one that DOES. I find that most people who have the wherewithal to even use the term “atheist” are well endowed with religious inclinations but they don’t recognize them as such simply because such inclinations don’t have the look and feel of mainstream religion. I find that such people are generally more intelligent and honest with themselves and, in that regard, are closer to some absolute truths than most Jesus nuts and Sunday God Lovers.
A REAL atheist is someone who has looked long and hard for “God” and does not yet feel that they have found one. Who is more religiously inclined then? A genuine devout atheist or a bible huggin zombie?
Nikhil: …..Consider this: As an atheist, one is forced to claim that the majority of teh world's population is wrong. As a Hindu, hwoever, I follow Mr. Gandhi when he said that all religions were fundamentally true. Which seems more tolerant?
DDN: Perhaps the atheist is. He generally does not try to force his lack of “belief” down others’ throats and is theoretically open to the possibility of god pending some proof or solid first hand experience. If you follow Gandhi, on the other hand, then you believe that christianity is true and hence you believe, as christianity proclaims, that all other religions are false and intolerable. Just look at Shaun’s post right next to yours in this same thread. He says everybody is going to burn in hell forever except the Christians and Gandhi concurs with this according to you. The worst thing any atheist ever said to ME was that I was wasting my time believing in God. NOW which seems more intolerant?
Nikhil:……most of my friends in high school were Catholic. If there is any signle church which can be called representative of Christianity, it is the RCC, which traces its descent in a direct line from Jesus Himself, through Peter. These guys were generally among the most tolerant people I know. Certainly more tolerant than my atheist father, who was one of teh best men i ever knew. My grandmother had horrible things done to her by her in-laws because of her Christian faith; yet she forgave them. I find it hard to believ that her religion played no part in that. (she was a Hindu at the time, actually). How then can you say Christianity is intolerant? ….
DDN: Uhhh……because christianity ITSELF proclaims intolerance of every system of belief on earth except its own?? Good enough reason?
Nikhil: ….Sure, in teh past people did bad things in the name of Christianity……
DDN: Yes, and now they are perfect angels that wouldn’t think of infringing on our civil rights with their own personal belief system, corrupting indigenous cultures with their propaganda, or blowing up abortion clinics. We still quietly justify murderous U.S. operations overseas with the idea that this is “God’s country”, a christian premise instilled by our elite christian ancestors. White christian americans are God’s favorite people – don’t you know that? That’s why they can do ANYTHING they want to ANYBODY they want ANYTIME they want to do it especially if they can back it up with some good ol fashioned bible thumpin. Again, Shaun is a perfect case in point. To paraphrase Shaun: “Everybody is going to hell except christians.
Nikhil:….much of the racial ideology last century was carried out in the name of science; do you reject science as well?
DDN: Not wholesale but, yes, some of it I reject outright because it is not really science at all – just like a lot of christianity, as we know it, has nothing to do with the teachings of christ, the contents of the bible, or even religion for that matter. I don’t think ANYONE can reject ALL of Christianity in its entirety though. For example, I think its generally a good idea not to murder people. I concur with Bible on THAT one. But then again, so what?
1) I was morally opposed to murder before I ever even thought about “God” or read the Bible. What function is the Bible fulfilling in such cases that were already fulfilled?
2) “Don’t’ murder” is one puny verse in 1500 page book. Its one of a handful of verses that make any sense and provide any clear suggestions about how we should behave. The rest of it is mostly a bunch of archaic, errant crap that apparently requires one to undergo some sort of brain washing in order to believe that one understands it.
3) The “don’t murder” commandment, along with all the others, is thrown out the window in the New Testament with the arrival of Jesus Christ, so the whole book would be just as pertinent if the ten commandments had never been included.
Nikhil: …..I commented tn Hinduism below, so I'll add one last point- what problem do you ahve with hippies?
DDN: None really. I have a problem with the commercialized bullshit they were sold about Jesus being here to spread peace and love and harmony. I brought up this point because Darya (or whoever) was trying to tell me that being Christian meant accepting everyone and getting along, and it clearly does not.
None.
