: DDN: 1) You've stated several times that there is nothing I can do to be saved but you have also stated several times that there are things (or THING) I MUST do in order to be saved. SO......which is it? Are there things I CAN do to be saved, MUST do to be saved, or is there NOTHING at all I can do to be saved? : McChick: All you need is FAITH and love, as faith without love is useless (1 Corinthians 13:2b)
: Romans 3:21-31 will basically answer your question. There is no good deed that you need to do to be saved, it is moreso a change of thought. There is more to just believing in Jesus, as Shaun said once. Even Satan believes in Jesus. Please do read the Bible references I have included, as God's Word puts it much better than I do.
:DDN:
: 1) Then there IS something I CAN do to be saved: I can HAVE FAITH and LOVE, correct? So…whenever someone says that there is NOTHING I can do to be saved – they are either mistaken or lying, correct? I am told frequently (even by the Bible itself) that there is NOTHING I can do to be saved.
: Therefore, according to you, the Bible is either mistaken or lying, correct?
McChick: What? No! The Bible would never lie. It may be me, not lying, but mistaken. Why would the Bible lie? "Can we boast then that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law" Romans 3:27-28 Does that explain it? There is nothing we can do to earn God's love. He loves each and everyone of us.
DDN: Well then you must be mistaken. You’ve claimed that there is nothing one can do to be saved but then claimed that there WAS INDEED something one could do to be saved (TWO things, in fact): 1) have faith and 2) have love. Either your first claim (there is nothing we can do to be saved) is incorrect or your second claim (there IS something we can do to be saved) is incorrect. Which one IS it? The first claim or the second claim? Which one is incorrect?
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DDN: 2) There are verses in the Bible that say faith and prayer ALONE are enough to accomplish ANYTHING – no mention of LOVE at all:
: Matt. [22] And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.
: Hmmmm. Looks like you’re wrong. Love is not a requirement for ANYTHING according to this verse.
McChick: I didn't mean to say that love is a requirement, but…...
DDN: BUT……YOU DID. See above: “All you need is faith and LOVE”. We “need” love according to this statement i.e. love is a requirement. Anybody can make a mistake but shouldn’t you get your story straight before dispensing incorrect instructions for escaping eternal damnation? I think it’s the very height of irresponsibility to do otherwise.
McChick: ….."And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody." 1 Corinthians 13:2b
DDN: So what? Why do I need to be “good to anybody”? I thought our only concern here was whether we are going to eternal heaven or to eternal hell? Should we be concerned with anything else? Why? What could be more important than escaping eternal hell for eternal heaven? Are you (or the bible) declaring that being “good to somebody” is a requirement for admission into heaven? Isn’t “being good to somebody” pretty closely related to “performing good deeds” and therefore not a requirement? And, if being good to somebody IS a requirement then love is ALSO a requirement since you must have love to be good to anybody (according to your quote above), correct? And, if love is a requirement, how do you explain MATT 22:
“And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith” ???
According to this verse, all that is required for admission into heaven is to have faith and then pray for admission! Where’s the “LOVE” part?! I don’t see any mention of love in there, do you?
McChick: ….."There are three things that will endure-faith, hope, and love- and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13
DDN: Yes, that’s very beautiful, but what the hell does it have to do with this discussion? Does an attribute or trait’s endurance have ANY bearing AT ALL on whether or not it is a requirement for admission into heaven? Yes? Where does the bible say so? Where does the bible say that, if you want to get into heaven, you have to acquire the attribute or trait with the longest endurance? And if such a passage exists, then isn’t Corinthians 13:13 declaring that love IS INDEED a requirement for admission into heaven by virtue of its endurance? And, again, how do you reconcile this with MATT 22?
McChick: …..Is it possible to have faith without love? They are hand in hand. You don't need faith AND love. With faith comes love…..
DDN:
A) Where is the biblical verse that says that love and faith come as a package deal? Does the bible ever say this or are you just making stuff up?
B) Why would the bible tell us that we need BOTH of these things but then neglect to tell us that we only need to bother acquiring ONE of them due to the fact that the OTHER one will come automatically? Even my tax form instructions are more helpful than this. Can’t god be at least as coherent as the IRS?
C) Assuming that faith and love DO come “hand in hand”, does not mean that you don’t NEED faith and love, as you have inferred above. All that can be inferred from “hand in hand” is that you do not need to WORK TO ACQUIRE both of them (i.e. you can acquire one and the other will follow automatically).
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DDN: 3) Romans 3:21-31 doesn’t say a damn thing about LOVE. It lists several requirements god has of us not one of which is love. They are as follows: having faith, believing in Jesus, and obeying the law.
McChick: I didn't say that it did………
DDN: You said TWO things: 1) All I needed was faith and LOVE and that Romans 3:21-31 would answer the question: “What are the requirements for admission into heaven?” Assumably, if LOVE is a requirement for admission into heaven AND if Romans 3:21-31 is supposed to list the necessary requirements, then one should expect Romans 3:21-31 to explicitly state that love is a requirement for admission into heaven, but alas, it does not even imply such a thing. How do you reconcile this?
McChick: …..I said that 1 Cor 13 is about love (well I didn't explicitly say that though). I knew what Romans 3:21-31 says. and it says that obey the law is not a requirement. "But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight - not by obeying the law, but by the way promised in the scriptures long ago" Rom 3:21
DDN: Ok, then Romans 3:21-31 lists TWO requirements: 1) have faith and 2) believe in Jesus, the latter requirement being conspicuously absent from your original list: 1) have faith 2) have love.
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DDN: 4) You yourself have also added to the list of requirements: “change your thinking”, “believe in Jesus”, and “read Bible references”.
: Given all of the above, once again for the 8 millionth time, I must ask: What must I do in order to be “saved”? What does God require from us that we might be allowed into heaven? And where is the biblical passage that gives these requirements? So far we have:
: 1) Believe in Jesus
: 2) Change your thinking
: 3) Obey the Law
: 4) Have “faith”
: 5) Read Bible references
: Are there anymore requirements? Have we left anything out? If I passed this around to 10 random christian priests would they all concur that these were indeed the requirements (no more and no less) for winning God’s favor?
Mcchick: No, and nor do I. You made up the list from what I said……..
DDN: Eh? From what you said? Are you now telling me that I am not to believe what you say, or that I am not to believe that YOU believe what you are saying? Over the course of many sentences you’ve given me a number of different things I can do (or MUST do) to get saved. Are you saying that, by simply consolidating these things into a list, I have invalidated them or misrepresented your opinions on salvation in some way?
McChick (cont): ……I did not say that you have to read the Bible to get saved. I was just suggesting that you read what I suggested to help answer your questions…..
DDN:
1) I don’t get it? If I need to read the bible in order to find out how to get saved, then wouldn’t that make “reading the bible” a requirement for my salvation? Are reading the instructions for changing a spark plug one of the requirements for being able to change a spark plug if you don’t already know how to change one? It certainly would be for me. No, you didn’t emphatically state that reading the bible was a REQUIREMENT, but you did SUGGEST that it was a requirement by suggesting that it would clarify my confusion over the issue of salvation. (And, just for the record, it DID NOT.)
2) Didn’t the contents of the bible have ANYTHING to do with your salvation?
McChick (cont): ……I didn't say "obey the law" and nor did the Bible as I said above. In regards to "change your thinking", that's basically having faith,…..
DDN: Whoooaaaa…....Basically??? What do you mean by “basically”? Is there indeed some difference between these two actions (albeit a minor one)? If I were to “change my thinking” (in the intended manner) I would not necessarily being doing the exact same thing as “having faith”, correct? And, therefore, I would not be fulfilling the REQUIREMENT of “having faith”, correct? And therefore I would not go to heaven when I died, correct? And therefore I would be damned to hell eternally, correct? In short, by following your advice (i.e. “change my thinking”) in an attempt to fulfill the FAITH requirement, I would be condemning myself to eternal hell, correct?
McChick (cont):……I was just trying to illustrate…….
DDN: I don’t care what you’re “TRYING” to do if your attempt to do it is going to land me in hell for all eternity.
McChick (cont):……I was just trying to illustrate there that it is not a physical action or good deed that is required…....
DDN:
1) “PHYSICAL action”? Isn’t reading the bible a “physical action”? Isn’t listening to a missionary preach the gospel an act that occurs in the physical plane? What about praying? Isn’t anything “physical” happening when I’m praying from the physical realm? If I’m not kneeling with my hands folded and moving my mouth to confess sins then, at most, are there no changes whatsoever in neural activity in my brain when I pray? Isn’t my brain part of the physical realm?
2) Where does the bible say “physical action” in reference to terms of salvation? Are you just making things up again?
McChick (cont):…..In short all you need is faith. Faith that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Believing in Jesus is covered by faith, it need not be a separate category, I will explain what I mean by faith further down.
DDN: If all you need is faith then why bother telling people they need to acquire things like LOVE and a “belief in Jesus”? Why not just tell them that all they need to do is have “faith that Jesus died on the cross for our sins”? If all this other crap is unnecessary then why let it clutter up this one true requirement?
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DDN: Why does Shaun not concur with this list [see above list of salvation requirements]? Is he not “Born Again”, Saved, etc.?
McChick: I am sure he is born again. Even I did not concur with your list.
DDN: But how can YOU be born again if you do not concur even with your own list of salvation requirements?
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: DDN: 2) Are all Jews that have lived and died after the arrival of Christ now in eternal Hell?
: McChick: If they have heard about Jesus and chosen to reject him, then I guess they are. It's sad.
: DDN: What do you mean by “heard about Jesus”? Do you mean to say that if they only heard his name used once in a complete sentence by someone standing next to them in a subway and then never followed up with a “belief in Jesus” (whatever that means), that they would consequently burn in hell eternally upon their death. That IS sad. Again, I’m compelled to ask:
: 1) How much do you need to “hear about Jesus” before your “rejection” of him will land you in Hell?
McChick: What I really wanted to say was "if they had heard The Word" but that I thought would confuse you. Basically, Shaun put it well in his post. I agree with what Shaun said.
DDN: Ok. Let’s have a looksee at what Shaun said:
“All people, no matter who they are,who have heard the gospel and did not believe will not enter Heaven. It's in the Bible.”
It appears to me to be exactly what you are saying except “heard about Jesus” is replaced with “heard the gospel”. So my basic question still stands: What do you mean by “heard the gospel”? How much of the gospel do you need to hear before your “rejection” of it (or Jesus) will land you in Hell?
:DDN: 2) What constitutes “rejection”? If the Jew on the subway spent the rest of his life reading the Bible as a consequence of hearing the word “Jesus” on the subway, but his readings did not result in an understanding of Jesus, would he then be guilty of rejecting Jesus and subsequently be damned to eternal Hell?
McChick: That's hard to answer. That wouldn't happen anyway, where did you get that thought in your head? ……………
DDN: Well, millions of Americans attend church every Sunday from birth till death to hear the gospel and yet many of them can be readily exposed as clueless idiots when it comes to the teachings of Jesus or the contents of the bible in general. I’ve also known people that read the bible regularly at home and somehow still manage to have no awareness whatsoever of popular, critical verses regarding Jesus and his teachings.
Note the following example: Jesus tells us not to judge others (unless we ourselves are flawless), and yet bible thumping Christians, as a whole, are the most judgemental people I have ever met in my life (not to mention the most flawed). I’d even go so far to say that, quite often, the more exposure to the bible people have had, the more judgmental they seem to be.
You say that my “rejection” scenario above wouldn’t happen? I say “Where did YOU get that thought in YOUR head?” It COULD happen, it WOULD happen, and it usually DOES happen to one degree or another.
McChick (cont):…..If he really wanted to find the Truth [the jew in the example], he would. (Note: I am not saying that really wanting to find The Truth is a requirement)
DDN: Uhhhh…..ermmm…..yes you are. You just did. I’ll add it to the list for ya.
McChick (cont):…..I don't really understand the question…..
DDN: Then let me clarify. You said (through you agreement with Shaun) that anyone who heard the gospel but did not believe it (rejected it) would not be allowed into heaven. What I want to know is this:
How does god determine when one is guilty of “rejection”? For example: If someone selected a random sentence from the gospel and read it to me and, upon it reaching my ears and being processed by my brain, I soon forgot what I had heard, would I then, in god’s eyes be guilty of “rejection” and therefore not allowed into heaven? What if I memorized an entire page (say page #1296) and, from then on, could recite it backwards and forwards at will but never came to understand its meaning? Would I then, in god’s eyes, be guilty of “rejection”?
McChick (cont): …….And perhaps I don't know the answer……
DDN: You sure sounded like you knew the answer a minute ago. What happened? Don’t run away! Come BAAAAaaaaaakkk!!!
McChick (cont): ……I'm not afraid to admit it. I don't know everything……
DDN: Your humility is admirable but, with all due respect madam, there’s seems to be MANY MANY things you don’t know about the bible, Jesus, and salvation. But this illustrates one of my points exactly: Modern Christianity epitomizes the old adage: “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing”.
There are millions of Christians inundating the planet with erroneous instructions for escaping eternal damnation in hell as McChick has helped me to demonstrate. Examples:
You need to read the bible. - Incorrect
You need to have Faith and Love. - Misleading
You must not reject the gospel once you have heard it.
- Very poorly defined and thus easily misconstrued
One must wonder: How many of the souls that are in hell right now owe their firey fate to a partially educated christian zealot?
McChick (cont):……God will judge this person, not me.
DDN: Yes, McChick……but HOW will He judge him in your understanding of the bible? Is the Jew in my example guilty of rejection or not? If you knew what God meant by “rejection”, you’d know whether or not this Jew was guilty of it, wouldn’t you? It logically follows that, if you admittedly DON’T know whether the Jew in my example is guilty of rejection or not, then you most likely do not know what God meant by the term “rejection”. And, if you don’t know what God means by “rejection”, how do you know that YOU yourself have fulfilled His requirement of NON REJECTION and are hence “born again”?
