[This is a continuation of my previous post to McChick. I've broken this discussion up into smaller, more manageable posts.]
: DDN: 3) Clearly there are languages that the Bible has not been translated into (as demonstrated by Nikhil and Floyd in our thread below).
: : http://www.mcspotlight.org/debate/anything/messages/3873.html
: : If you have to be born again to get into heaven, and you have to know Jesus to be born again, and you have to read the Bible to know Jesus, how are people that speak such languages supposed to get into heaven?
: McChick: They may HEAR the Word, rather than read it. There are a great many illiterate people in these places who probably couldn't read it even if it was in their own languag. There are missionaries around the world, spreading the Good News about Jesus, and there are Bible translaters too, who are working on translating the Bible for these people while also witnessing to them, and teaching them about Jesus.
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: DDN:
: 1) Could you reference the appropriate verse that says that reading the bible is not necessary if one has HEARD it instead?
McChick: Where does it say that reading the Bible is necessary for salvation?
DDN: Why are you asking ME??? YOU are the born again christian and YOU are the one that has just claimed above that HEARING the word is neccesary if one has not read the Bible. Please review our exchange above. Above I have outlined the required process for getting into heaven (as given to me by Shaun – a person whose born again status you have claimed to be certain of). The process is, according to Shaun (and other christains I have queried), as follows:
Step 1) Read the bible to become knowledgeable of Jesus.
Step 2) Through you’re knowledge of Jesus, become “born again”.
Step 3) Die.
Viola! You’re in heaven.
You have modified Shaun’s model by claiming that one could also HEAR the Word instead of READ it. So now, according to you, the REQUIRED process is as follows:
Step 1) Read or HEAR the bible to become knowledgeable of Jesus.
Step 2) Through you’re knowledge of Jesus, become “born again”.
Step 3) Die.
In short, I don’t think ANYONE is claiming that hearing the bible is a necessary requirement for salvation, but YOU are saying that hearing it OR reading it (one or the other) IS a necessary requirement. So……my original question still stands:
Where in the bible does it say that one must either read the bible OR hear the bible in order to be saved? Where does it say, that if I’ve heard the bible, I am no longer required to read it (and vice versa)?
McChick: ….. There are missionaries around the world, spreading the Good News about Jesus, and there are Bible translaters too, who are working on translating the Bible for these people while also witnessing to them, and teaching them about Jesus.
DDN: 2) Yes, we know that there are missionaries around the world blah blah blah blah blah………But you are begging the question – or intentionally avoiding it. Not every single freaking person on the planet has access to a missionary, and even if they did would that missionary necessarily IN ALL CASES know how to recite the entire Bible (or at least the key parts) to them in their native tongue. Not bloody likely, especially since we’ve already explained that translations into certain languages do not (and sometimes CANnot) exist – how is the missionary supposed read a non-existent book to them? So…..is the fate of such individuals eternal damnation in Hell?
McChick: There are people in the mission field learning the languages, and they do become proficient enough to explain the KEY parts, and even other parts.
DDN: Two points to make here:
Point #1) Why won’t you address the primary question McChick? Let’s break it down all the way so that you can’t possibly missunderstand what I am asking:
IS THERE AT LEAST ONE FREAKING PERSON ON THIS PLANET RIGHT NOW THAT HAS NOT READ OR HEARD THE BIBLE BECAUSE IT HAS NOT YET BEEN TRANSLATED INTO THEIR LANGUAGE AND MISSIONARIES HAVE NOT YET LEARNED THEIR LANGUAGE WELL ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN THE KEY PARTS TO THEM?
IS YOUR ANSWER YES???
IF SO, THEN, IF THIS PERSON DIED RIGHT NOW THIS VERY SECOND, WHERE WOULD HE/SHE GO? HEAVEN OR HELL?
Is that clear enough?
Point #2) What’s this business about “key” parts?
2.1) Does that mean there are parts of the bible that are NOT “key” to getting into heaven? What are those parts doing in there then? Why should anyone be concerned with anything other than escaping eternal damnation in hell?
2.2) How much of the bible would you say is NOT “key”? 50%? 60%? 97.5%?
2.3) More importantly, what ARE the “key” parts exactly? Are they small enough in number to list here?
2.4) Even more importantly, how was it determined that certain parts were “key” parts? Who made this determination? Does god indicate in the bible which parts are “key” or was this something that was determined by mortal men?
2.5) Can you show me one verse where god is speaking and he is pointing to another verse and saying “Look at this verse! Its more important than the others. It is in fact KEY to getting into heaven.” ???
2.6) And if there are such verses that declare other verses “key”, are the verses making such declarations also “key”? What indicates to us that verses making such declarations are also “key”?
McChick (cont): …..The question is: If someone (like tribal people) has never heard the Gospel, are they going to Hell? My answer is: I don't know, I think maybe. What does Shaun think?
DDN: FINALLY!! It’s a breakthru folks! She’s actually acknowledging the primary question. Thankyou McChick. AND THE ANSWER IS……. (drumroll please)…………….
“I don’t know”
Shoot me. Kill me now. Kill me!! (in my best Sam Kinnesen voice).
Ok, fine…..you don’t know. What does Shaun think? Well, go take a look at our thread. Shaun, like yourself, gives contradictory opinions and then claims ignorance. Basically, it appears that he thinks such people would not go to hell, and since, according to him, everyone is going to either hell or heaven, such people must be going to heaven. I find this hilarious, because it means that the only chance such people have of going to hell is if they encounter the bible!!! Otherwise they’re bound for heaven from the day they were born! I’ll let this issue play itself out in Shaun’s thread, but there is one point here I’d like to take up with you McChick:
Why don’t any of the christians I’ve asked this question to know the answer? Isn’t it in the bible? Isn’t the bible supposed to have everything we need to know in it? Don’t we need to know the answer to this question? If unexposed “tribal people” are bound for heaven if we just leave them alone, then wouldn’t it be important for christians to know this? It would mean that all christian missionaries are actually importers of eternal damnation! Will you concede that the bible is incomplete?
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None.
