Shaun: I have said it before and I'll say it again. All people who have accepted Jesus as thier Savior and who's sins are forgiven will be in heaven. People who's sins are not forgiven are not. DDN: “All people who have accepted Jesus as thier Savior and who's sins are forgiven”? Isn’t that the definition of a Christian? Isn’t a “non-christian” someone who does not meet these criteria? Doesn’t this mean that all Christians are going to heaven and all non-christians are not? And if all people who do not go to heaven are going to hell (as you’ve stated ealier) then doesn’t it follow that all “non-christians” (hindus, muslems, etc. ) are going to hell? Where’s the flaw in my logic here? If there is none, then why didn’t you just answer YES to the original question? Original question: Are all non-christians going to hell when they die? I’ll ask it again: Are all non-christians going to hell when they die? Yes or No.
If the answer is YES, then how can you and Darya, as devotees to this doctrine, state that you’re position is one of “tolerance”?
Shaun (cont): …..Just because a large percentage of the people on this Earth die without ever having thier sins forgiven does not mean I can't be nice to them.
DDN: Be nice to them? Let me get this straight: You smile graciously to people as you politely explain to them that they and all their kin are going to burn in hell forever because of they have non-christian belief systems? Or do you just smile and make nice small-talk with them knowing full well that they are going to burn in hellfire eternal but not offering them any help or warning whatsoever? Neither disposition sounds particularly “nice” to me. With such an intense and uniquely christian paradigm at the core of your belief system, it seems that you must either be tramlping over the beliefs of others with warnings about eternal damnantion or mercilessly letting the doors of hell slam shut behind them. Where does being “nice” fit into either approach?
Besides, whether or not you are “nice” to others was not the issue. The issue was whether or not you are “tolerant” of others? Again, there is no recourse for you. If you believe that non-christians are going to hell because of their belief systems, then you cannot truthfully declare yourself to be tolerant of others. All you can do is try to change the subject by replacing words like “tolerant” with words like “nice”.
Shaun (cont):……I would not make fun of someone just because they are not a Christian but I would still treat them like a brother or sister.
DDN: You mean you’d let your own sister or brother burn in hellfire eternal before raising the issue of their salvation? Or would you warn them about their faulty belief system and tell them about “Jesus being the ONLY way out” thereby disrecpecting their belief system?
Shaun (cont):…….Most of the people I associate with are not Christians but I treat them with respect. It is this way with most Christians
: DDN: Come again? How am I being intolerant.
You make fun of Christians in every one of your posts. At leat I'm not going around calling everyone else stupid.
DDN: You are making wild and ludicrous claims about how individual fate is determined. I’m asking you to make sense out of these claims for us. If you feel “made fun of” I’d invite you to entertain the possibility that it is because you cannot provide coherent, consistent, honest explanations to the issues I’m raising and not so much because I am “making fun of you”.
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::DDN: The main point I’m trying to establish in this thread is that your belief that all people, beside christians, are going to hell when they die is a highly intolerant position and anyone that maintains this position cannot truthfully claim to be an accepting, tolerant person.
: It’s a pretty reasonable point, isn’t it? How am I being intolerant by making this point?
Shaun: I never said anyone of other religions is going to hell.
DDN: Like hell you didn’t!! You said that EVERYONE deserved hell in one post and in another post stated that only becoming “born again” (becoming christian) would rescue anyone from this fate. That pretty much leaves EVERYBODY of EVERY other religion going to hell, doesn’t it?
Shaun (cont):…… I never said anyone of other religions is going to hell.
I said anyone who is not saved (accepted Jesus as Savior) is. My friend is Jewish but he believes in Jesus and is saved.
DDN: Then he isn’t Jewish anymore, Stuart. He’s a Christian. He’s going to heaven because he is a Christian, correct? No? Then what the hell does being a “christian” mean? Does it have any bearing whatsoever on whether or not a person gets into heaven? What’s the difference between a Christian and someone who has “accepted Jesus as Savior”?
Shaun (cont):…….Anyone can be saved no matter who you are.
DDN: Right, by becoming a christian, correct?
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DDN: Go ahead, HAVE a nervous breakdown. You NEED one. You WISH I was just picking on religion in general. I invite everyone to go read the post Shaun is referring to:
: and see for themselves that the only thing I’m bashing in that post is CHRISTIANITY – and doing a damn fine job of it if I don’t say so myself. My opinions on atheism in this thread clearly point out that I am NOT one. I “believe in God” as much as the next guy AND to the extent to which this expression can be meaningfully defined. I didn’t say squat about hinduism except to point out that christianity does not “tolerate and accept” hinduism and that Ghandi technically put his foot in his mouth by saying christianity was valid when christianity declares hinduism to be INVALID.
Shaun: Wel I'm sure a Hindu just loves to hear you say Ghandi is wrong.
DDN:
1) I didn’t say Ghandi was wrong. GHANDI said Ghandi was wrong. He said that christianity was legitimate. But Christianity says that Hinduism is NOT legitimate. So if Christianity is legitimate as Ghandi asserts, then Hinduism must be illegitimate. Since Ghandi was Hindu, he belongs to an illegitimate religion and, in that regard, he is “wrong” based on his own assertion that Christianity is legitimate.
2) How do you think Hindus feel when millions of Christians say that all Hindus are going to hell when they die? I’ll tell you how they feel: They think y’all are bunch of degenerate, unevolved, idiots.
:DDN: Shaun, as a christian, is the only one of the two of us that has expressed any intolerance for non-christian religious beliefs. Exmaples: “There is no way to heaven accept through Jesus [christianity]”, “Everyone that’s not going to heaven is going to hell”, etc.
: I’ve questioned Darya’s conviction to the Christian faith, now I think its time to openly question Shaun’s.
: How deep is your faith in Christainity if, when confronted with biblical contradictions like the one’s you have helped me present, instead of standing up to them you “turn tail” and try to align yourself with the hellbound, non-christian religions of the world?
:
Shaun: Firstly, I never presented any biblical contradiction.
DDN: Here are just some of the contradictions you, Darya, and McChick have made and endorsed:
1) Christians are tolerant of other religions VS. Christians believe that adhering to other religions will land you in hell
2) Christians are respectful of other religions VS. Christian missionaries are making sure that every single tongue on the planet will be exposed to Jesus Christ in hopes that they will abandon their indigenous religious beliefs and allow them to be replaced with christianity.
3) I have to know jesus in order to be born again VS. I have to be born again in order to know jesus
4) People that have never been exposed to the Gospel are going to hell VS. God is fair therefore he won’t let certain remote peoples go to hell just because they did not have the good fortune to hear the Gospel.
: DDN:What are christian missionaries doing all over the world? Being tolerant and respectful of other peoples religions? Not hardly. Their trying to displace their religions completely with Christianity, aren’t they?
: Shaun (cont):.....Are Christians the only ones who have missionaries all over the world?
: DDN: That’s not the point, shaun, and you know it. The point is that sending missionaries all over the world to displace the religions of other cultures can hardly be classified as “respectful and tolerant of other religions” as you claim christianity to be. Your claim of “tolerance and respect” is errant – THAT’S the point. Do you agree that your claim is errant or not? No? Why not?
Shaun: The point is, Christianity is not the only faith with missionaries.
DDN: Now you’re just being rediculous. Clearly this was not our point of contention. I distinctly recall that we were debating whether or not Christianity could be classified as tolerant of other religions. I brought up the missionary thing to support my claim that they were NOT. Do you have anything to say in defense of this?
Shaun: Christians are all over the world because they are sharing the good news to everyone, that Jesus loves them.
DDN: Oh yeah, I bet American indians could just FEEEEEEEEEL the love.
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: DDN:
: 1) Jehova’s witnesses ARE Christians. Just ask them. They SAY that they are. That was enough proof for you to believe that Darya was a Christian – it ought to be enough for Jehova’s witnesses whose entire lifestyles are centered around selected verses from the bible.
Shaun: I can write a book on how Jehovah's wittnesses are not Christians. A guy at my job is a devout JW and since I'm a Christian we talk a lot about these things. We get along pretty good too but anyway he has told me that although they consider thier religion a branch of Christianity, many don't like calling themselves Christians because they don't like to be confused with or associated with Catholics and Protestants. Basically there are 4 branches of Christianity: Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodox (which I think is closely related to Catholicism but I'm not too sure) and the "Christian cults" such as Jehovahs wittnesses, Mormons, Scientologists etc... Thier not really Christians, but cults that are loosely based on some biblical doctrine.
DDN: But these “cults” do claim to be “christian” and they base their religious views on the bible just as the mainstream christian branches you have mentioned do. So how is one to determine which ones are legitimate and which ones aren’t?
::DDN: 2) Mormons are followers of Jesus Christ also and hence are technically christians. I’m sure they call themselves christians ALSO, don’t they?
Shaun: To be honest I don't know what they do believe (except that its good to marry many people at once) but I do know that they don't believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity that Protestants and Catholics do. Therefore, they are not Christians.
DDN: Huh? If you don’t know what their beliefs are then how do you know that they don’t believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity? And who gave the mainstream christians like you the authority to determine who is a “real” christian and who is not? When I claimed that Darya was not a christian you refuted my claim by saying “Why not? She SAYS she is”. Mormons “SAY” they are christians also. Why is this excuse good enough for Darya (who’s views blatently contradict the teachings of Jesus) but not good enough for millions of Mormons?
:DDN: 3) The Hairy Fishnuts aren’t, to my knowledge, aren’t dispensing anything other than flowers. And, although they probably engage in some sort of recruiting activities, I’m not aware of their involvement in any mass geneocide operations or damning everyone to hell eternal that doesn’t worship Krishna.
Shaun: I'm not sure of thier beliefs either, only that they do try to win people to Krishna
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: Shaun (cont): …..Yet in your eyes Christians are the only ones who are wrong for sharing thier faith aren't they?
DDN: 1) Are you aware that you’ve just stated that christians are wrong for sharing their faith?
Shaun: No because I said "in your eyes" Maybe you didn't see that part.
DDN: Yes, because you said “in your eyes christians ARE THE ONLY ONES” who are wrong for sharing their faith implying that you believe, in contrast to me, that EVERYONE is wrong for sharing their faith including christians. Perhaps you didn’t see that part.
DDN: 2) I agree that they are wrong for sharing their faith to the degree that such “sharing” violates the rights of others and carries with it the threat of burning in hell forever if the “sharing” is rejected. Christianity stands head and shoulders above all other world religions combined in this regard.
Shaun: Telling somebody that Jesus wants to save them is not violating thier rights.
DDN: No, but slaughtering and enslaving people from other races because you think the bible endows you with some special priveleges to do so DOES violate their rights. And whether geneocide is committed or not, the “sharing” you are referring to does carry with it the threat of burning in hell forever and I believe that spreading such a doctrine world wide is insane.
None.
