: Its called debate, I have an opinion, I will argue it- specifically since I think anti-nationalism is a fundamental socialist plank, I will argue against nationalism.OK no fan of Orwell's "Lion and the Unicorn" I take it? No fan of left wing folk songs about nation either? There is a Socialist tradition of nationalism just as there are imperial traditions and long may it last.
: : Good Points NJ but RD is working to a bit of a fanatical agenda here, it's alright, he has the freedom to do it, if some people hadn't behaved in a manner he would attack he might not have that freedom.
: Remember- Britain defeated Hitler in alliance with Stalin. We sure fought for freedom there.
Yeah I know but the war wasnt about freedom it was about defeating facism, I might add it's altogether easier to write with hindsight a lot of decent people at that time went wise to Stalin's Macavellian "Socialism" at least they are now.
: : Not just the peace corps, when I studied the New Deal in school I was surprised that this Right Wing nation that was crawling with the KKK had suddenly went all socialist. It was liberal socialism and it has been dismantled but it shouldnt be forgotten just like that.
: left-wing capitalism.
Fine, fine, in your opinion but what do you have to gain from diminishing the amount of choice available to everyone who isnt infavour of laize faire? Are Co-op's just self managed capitalism too?
The difference was it was planned.
: : Note the "whatever that means" a continued fanatical anti-nationalism the lefts hatred of even liberal patriotism is what gave rise to extreme varients of nationalism like facism and tactics like RD's here are fine if you dont mind getting out manouvered by the right again.
: The 'whatever that means' was questioning how 'a people' can have self-determination, as opposed to people having self determination for themselves.
Individualism versus common identity, strange for a socialist that.
: : No I dont think RD realises what self-determination means,
: It means deciding for yourself how to live- it doesn't mean having a master who speaks the same language as you.
Well that is something similar to what I'd have thought but like Ghandi said I'd prefer a rubbish government of my own to an excellent imperial one of someone elses.
: :I had to travel to Spain this year on Holidays before I could get to a good patriotic (but none Provo/IRA) irish bar where everyone wasnt up for a fight in the british tradition of hooliganism or before I could even say I'm irish without people looking horrified and immediately and forcibly denying me or accusing me of being a terrorist or something.
: i.e. being on the recieivng end of some other groups nationalism- other people dividng the working class.
Fair enough but how come I could be nationalist/patriotic without that kind of behaviour? Perhaps my nationalism is of a different, legitimate and positive nature as I stated before, generalise a bit more RD please do...
: : Englands got an imperial past, Britain is an imperial sham to try and unite the scots, welsh, brittany, cornwall, manx under an english banner and monarch when they're all celts.
: Celts? What are celts? Whats that got to do with teh price of fish? Are celts someohow different, incapable of being ruled by a Germanic tribe? Is being celt genetic? Aren't all countries just as much a sham, trying to pretend that Phil is the same as Barney?
I was merely giving an actual concrete example of real imperialism, in the old fashioned sense as opposed to this whole nation is the invention of rulers alone impression you have.
