- Anything Else -

Realism.

Posted by: Red Deathy ( Socialist Party, UK ) on September 01, 1999 at 17:00:50:

In Reply to: I never said it was perfect, just more realistic... posted by Lark on September 01, 1999 at 14:29:14:

: He wrote "eyeless in Gaza" about his horror at experiencing imperialism first hand have you thought about what your saying here or is this mere rehortic?

No, i understand what I am saying, he may well have wanted a mroe humane world, however, his writings adopt a political position that is unconsciously at the least imperial.

: He was a sincere and ardent socialist RD, I only made note of what he did because I thought it would provide material proof of his views, it is also a different matter to oppose war morally but support engagement where no alternative exists, EG reluctant militarism as opposed to pacifism.

Well, he specifically opposed said war, and then turned round and supported it to the hilt.

: It wasnt facist it was "objectively pro hitler"...

Facsifist was his coining. And no, opposing the war was not objectively pro Hitler, thats a bifurcation fallacy. tell that to the Quakers mate.

: Fine, regardless of their origins the terms have made it into convential language to give expression to political positions rejecting them is like saying to someone who asks you the weather well I oppose rain and sunshine so I cant tell you what is happening.

But I am not left-wing, my policies are not that of the left wing, I oppose the whole order, not supporting one side of it.

: Yet another gross generalisation when my dad asked my grandad, who volunteered with a bunch of NI Labour party people etc. to fight in WW2(conscription being non-compulsory in NI), why he did so he said it was because facism had to be stopped. You cant speak for every man women and child.

Why your Grandad went to gfight is *UTTERLY* irrelevent. Why the masses of soldiers went to fight, is irrelevent, the only relevent fact is why the ruling class and its adminsitrators decided why they were going to fight- whatever excuses or motivations they gave to their victims are beside the point. We don't have wars if the working class want them, no matter how much, but we do when teh capitalist class decide they want one.

: Well they dont to me just as every decision people make isnt dictated by self-interest it isnt dictated by altruism or absolutist rationality either.

Indeed, not all people, but when you are in charge of a country, you do not make decisions that will actively harm your national interest- that will always be the first consideration.

: I never said it was perfect, just more realistic...

Whose realism? by saying 'socialism is unrealistic' you make a self-fulfilling prophecy.

: The representative delegation that you advocate could become the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

No, because there would be no power of appointments given to delegates, and the executive would be directly elected. Further, voting on most matters effectively makes the people the legislature, overcoming through specificity the abstractedness of liberal formalism.

: Nation STATES being the operative word, EG not simply nations/national identities.

Even they were of slight existence, yes, tehre were peoples, but when they became nations, it changes.

: What would you like to be irish, I'll allow you if you want.

Somewhere on my Paternal Grandfathers side, mind, on the maternal grandmothers side is a former belfast Post-master and high-up in the orange lodge...hmmmmm

: No work towards good government, then no, or next to no government.

Right, working towards good government means working towards self-determination.

: I dont think it's all as deliberate and all as you make out, the elites that dominate compete to dominate each other as well.

Yes, thats why they *need* the state to keep each other in line, and thats where wars begin.

: That's funny I've been to Irish communities in Spain, US, England etc. and they've never claimed that the land they live in is part of the Irish Republic. Macavalianism, that is manipulative government with the input of conscious planning rulers, would have been consistant with your ideas about nationalism maybe not.

Indeed, but their irishness is guaranteed by the political Space and existence of a place called ireland, the home-country, even if it is just a logical suppposition- like the Irish Americans....



Follow Ups:

The Debating Room Post a Followup