: OK no fan of Orwell's "Lion and the Unicorn" I take it? No, I can't stand his Imperial-Adminsitrative class attitude. 'One familly, but with teh wrong members in charge.'- he's basically a Liberal.
:No fan of left wing folk songs about nation either? There is a Socialist tradition of nationalism just as there are imperial traditions and long may it last.
I am not eft-wing, and don't hold with Left-wing principles, left-wing, right-wing, both parts of the same damn bird.
: Yeah I know but the war wasnt about freedom it was about defeating facism, I might add it's altogether easier to write with hindsight a lot of decent people at that time went wise to Stalin's Macavellian "Socialism" at least they are now.
And at that time Socialists opposed the war, because they thought the British Empire every bit as bad as hitler's, that Stalin was every bit as much a monster as Hitler, etc.
: Fine, fine, in your opinion but what do you have to gain from diminishing the amount of choice available to everyone who isnt infavour of laize faire? Are Co-op's just self managed capitalism too?
What do I have to gain- simply convincing people that capitalism cannot be made to work, and so must be done away with. As for co-ops, yes.
: The difference was it was planned.
Planned, smanned, by whom? Who for? The Atlee government saved British Capitalism with its Left-wing capitalism. Its still the amrket, still has poverty, still fights wars.
: Individualism versus common identity, strange for a socialist that.
Not at all, nation states are undemocratic, nationalism is an ideological illusion of commonality, only through thorough free democracy can we have self-determination, slecting masters who speak the same language as you does not self-dtermination make.
: Well that is something similar to what I'd have thought but like Ghandi said I'd prefer a rubbish government of my own to an excellent imperial one of someone elses.
Why settle for an shite government of your own, when you could have a good government. It is someone elses government, its the ruling class' government.
: Fair enough but how come I could be nationalist/patriotic without that kind of behaviour? Perhaps my nationalism is of a different, legitimate and positive nature as I stated before, generalise a bit more RD please do...
Legitimate in whose eyes? Whom does it serve? Look, national identity is like the Stockholme Syndrome on a massive scale, our masters telling us that we have common interest with them, because we are their hostages, their needs must be met before ours, so we identify with their needs.
: I was merely giving an actual concrete example of real imperialism, in the old fashioned sense as opposed to this whole nation is the invention of rulers alone impression you have.
Its not the invention of the rulers alone, they have to select traditions and values in order to attract followers- look at pre-independance Ireland, Yeats et. al. trying to construct an echte Irische identity, going out into the peasant heartlands to borrow from folk-loric roots, in order to construct, actively and consciously, a national identity.
