: : I'm NOT FUCKING WHITE, how can I be a racist? : Erm, you could believe in Asian power. But answer the question, what is teh difference between nationalism and racism.
Let me play devils advocate here for a moment RD, how is nationalism and racism one and the same? I remember the Levellers having a song called "England my home" which was paatriotic and pluralist.
: And why can't I be patriotic to the white race? Have pride in the white race? Hmmm? Wherein is teh difference.
The difference is that NJ's patriotism, like my own, is a geographical definiton of home, everything down to the weather and climate probably counts in it's construction, the racism you are talking about is really a varient of right-wing internationalism. Rail against that if you want but dont confuse it with pluralist love of your homeland.
:So what if you grew up tehre, I grew up in Redcar, do I owe it my lotyalty before Birmingham? Why should you have pride in your country?
RD you obvioiusly have invested A LOT in constructing the right sort of sentiments to fit with your quasi-religious philosphy and you wont be able to understand it but could I just add I'm a socialist should I owe allegiance and loyalty to the SPGB?
: I object to the Firebombing as well, thank you- the Japanese fleet was destroyed, the US was marchining inexorably towards Japan, they probably would have surrenderede when US troops hit their soil (contrary to their 'fight to teh death image'), they were out of resources. The first point doesn't even enter into rational debate, whats it got to do with bombing Japan?
OK RD if they would have surrendered because of their resourceless predicament why didnt the Viet Cong? The philosophy of Japanese facism was more of a death cult than anything else, did you see anyone else employing kamikazee pilots or submarines?
: : OK., by using teh word "tryant", you're already stacking the deck. And you can't call teh US an evil power, since it has also done a lot of good. By the way, I forgot to mention the Peace Corps, which ahs doen a lot for development in Africa, S. America, and other places, and which is strictly apolitical.
: Well, it invades countries without respect of teh Rule of Law, shows scant regard for freedom, and is not controlable by any other group who may be its vitcims, sounds like classic tyranny to me. Think of a father, gives his kids gifts, plays with them seems to love them, but perhaps he ferociously beats one of them and is a strict disciplinarian, always demanding to get his own way...
That's true of Britain aswell as the US RD and I suspect that the socialist/liberal patriotism of NJ is a world apart form the US's supremist government.
: All people have a right to govern themselves, 'peoples' is an abstraction meaning that one group of rulers take over from another- does it matter if one master was british and one master was Egyptian, still a fucking master-
Well as you first had the right to:
A)take your national identity for granted EG no one trying to foust a different one upon you.
B)renounce it as was consistant with your party line
I dont expect you to understand the predicament of people in a nationless setting, a bit of empathy wouldnt go a miss RD.
:I don't support any wars of iberation, the working class has no nation.
If your quite finished with the religious eulogues we will continue because the facts arent with you there who fights these wars? Who welcomed the wars? Who joined the nationalist and facist parties?
: i.e. self interest, and a way of controlling Taiwan, hardly a shining example of righteous behaviour.
RD your cycnicism is amazing this is the kind of thing that "regular" people think off when I mention socialism, so I just dont anymore.
: No, they ended up firing on a clearly marked Red Cross hospital, US roops were not the answer, sending troops in gets people killed you know...
People are being killed anyway you know...
: Yes, but not your government, who are quite keen on keeping him there (hence betraying the Kurds and Shia muslims). Sanctions prop his regime up quite immensely, and justify a continued military presence in the region.
Fine but where has NJ's patriotism had loyalty to the government written into it? You arent debating with right-wing nationalists here and if you think all nationalism is right-wing your making a grave error, a very grave one.
Might I just say that I consider myself a patriot and a socialist I dont owe loyalty to any institution or Macavellian government, I owe loyalty to the mystic of the land of my birth. A concoction of ecologism and myth it's never hurt no one.
: Bingo, I don't call it evil, I would never use such terms, I would call it pragmatic self interest, however, we have to ask, is it right for one powerful nation to have such a self interest, and should we back its pursuit of self interest, instead, of say, backing the rule of law, or even world-wide peace.
Macavallian government will always be one of the first among the ranks of the enamy RD what does it have to do with denying legitimate self-identity?
:There is no need to defend one state against another,
Fair enough, unless there's been an invasion or illegitimate act of aggression.
:workers have no nation, they have no national interest, the world over they have only one interest- against the Capitalist class.
OK I maybe an exception to the rule but I dont think I am and I dont see your capitalist class either.
