- Anything Else -
A challenge; no-one's cracked it yet...
Posted by: Gideon Hallett ( UK ) on November 15, 1999 at 17:31:16:
In Reply to: hE THAT CAST THE FIRST STONE posted by Kristin on November 15, 1999 at 10:39:37:
:Right. Time for a flat-out challenge of the fuzzy-thinking. I've levelled this argument twice at Stuart and he has yet to provide me with an answer of any sort.
I'm not looking for some vague and patronising flim-flammery; just some pure reason, if you can encompass it.
I'm not saying that a God doesn't exist; merely that you can never prove the existence of God by any physical or logical means. This should present no problems to the enlightened Christians like Lark; but I'd be interested to see how Robert or Kristin or Stuart react to it.
K: Your absolutely right. It is only through faith that we can see or perceive anything spiritual. For instance, if you don't believe in God then this world appears to your fleshly eyes as a mere coincidence. A big bang that resulted in our existance.
Through faith, you perceive and see the spiritual which results in the conclusion that we are more precious and valuable in the eyes of a creator. That there is a highter meaning to life than what we perceive while walking in the spiritually numb valleys of it. Without faith, I guess we'll all just have to resign to the fact that we're just a bunch of bones running around in skin suits. I guess love, joy, pain, deception, truth, etc. doesn't really exist either since we can't prove it.
Anyway, your right. To the human eye God is foolishness. But to the spiritual eye, "no God" equals foolishness. Maybe the question isn't whether there is proof or not the question is, if he is real, would we want to accept him into our reality and way of thinking. Afterall, if he is real then all the hidden agendas, motives and secrets in our hearts might be known to someone other than ourselves. Pretty scary thought to those who want to remain in hiding. It's like someone barging into your bedroom in the middle of the night and turning on the lights. It hurts and offends our sensitive eyes and we scream for them to turn it back off.
So all this witty, banter back and forth whether God is real or not does nothing but build walls of pride and ignorance.
The real question is, those who have given there lives over IN FAITH to God, is the fruit of there life reflective of the fruits of the Spirit proclaimed in the Word of God. Love, patience, kindness, forbearence, honesty, humility etc. If so and if these fruits are genuine and not based in pretense, people pleasing, manipulation, wanting to appear godly etc, then we can conclude that there is something of TRUTH there. And if the truth spoken in love has the power to change the hearts of men and love and truth being spiritual laws then we also can conclude that it is something to be seriously contemplated and looked at.
No one can prove the reality of a vision but it is through the visions and hopes of our forefathers that we reap all the inventions and comforts of today. It was not because of evalution that made the Wright Brothers design an airplane. It was because deep down in their SPIRITS the truth told them it was possible. They never invented it, they only, through faith, hope and a vision discovered what was already there waiting for men of faith to bring into existance- "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."
This Christian debate has become a joke. No one is interested in knowing the truth because we're all to busy worshipping our idol of wisdom. I think we're all fairly intelligent, I think we all think fairly deeply, and I think we all get a prideful momentary high when we so elequently post something that we feel is brilliant wisdom incarnate into these rooms. Outside of these rooms we're probably known for our depth and intelligence and probably like to be defined by it by and known for it. But whatever truths we think we have stumbled across, if it is not spoken in humilty and love it is really no truth at all rather it is just an outlet to worship our own wisdom.
When I first came into these rooms last year, I almost became addicted to proving my point but God convicted me of my wrong attitude. All I can say when it comes to God is that I lived my life wearing masks. I didn't know who I was. I was popular because I was people pleaser and a clown. I got kicked out of every classroom I ever sat in, I was known for my wit and sarcasm. As I grew up I became depressed, anxious, suicidal and no one knew who I really was when I sat in my room alone at night. I drank myself into numerous bizarre situations, I smoked alot of pot which I thought enhanced my ability to see reality. I slept in everyday until 1:00, my life sucked yet I decieved myself into thinking it was good. Meanwhile I still had a crew of people who thought I was something. Eventually all that I had built myself into was staring me in the face and it was the greatest lie I ever saw. So I called on this God that I used to mock. I met a few of these Christians that I used to think were the biggest idiots for believing in such a pipedream. And lo and behold something started happening that I couldn't put my finger on. At first I only acknowledged there was a God. My life had taken a drastic change and I couldn't deny him anymore. The whole Jesus thing still made no sense to me. Then I got involved in a church that was real. These people had something and it was brutal honesty. They weren't a bunch of consertative, hell fire and brimstone, sitting on their highhorse people. They were authentic, they had strength, courage and love that I didn't know existed apart from pretense. Eventually I said to Jesus, if your real I want you. Since then, I haven't been drunk, I have an awsome job working at an investment firm, I have peace in my soul that surpasses all of my knowledge and understanding, I don't wake up with a pit in my stomach everyday, in fact I don't think as much about everything, and worry about everything. I am completely free from self analyzation and fear of what others might think. I really don't care because Jesus Has breathed in me such truth and love that I know who I am so I don't have to try to be something anymore. He's the way, the truth, and the life and when he comes into a heart he takes all the self deception, pride and pain and casts it out by the power of his truth, love and grace. And the only proof I have that He exists is within me, more than a concept or an ideal. He's more real to me than myself. All are invited, few attend and it's too bad. There isn't anything that compares to the life that is lived in the arms of Jesus. It's not a lifestyle, it's not about being or doing good, it's about a personal relationship with the very one who created me. I came as I was, warts and all and He transformed me. It's been no effort on my part. Back then if anything was an effort I certainly wouldn't have been embracing it.
So lets all get real here and quit asking all the wrong questions and arguing mute points. Bottom line is this. If you've met Jesus. There's no denying He's real. If you haven't then He still remains some cool dude with good ideas who died 2000 years ago. If you don't know what to believe, ask him yourself. Believe it or not he actually speaks to those that are willing to speak to him.
