Day 106 - 23 Mar 95 - Page 23

     
     1        A.  Yes.
     2
     3   Q.   Then I understand that it may or may not multiply, and one
     4        concerns oneself with the temperature at which the meat is
     5        cooked, among other factors, and I understand that you can
     6        have as much salmonella as you like; if you cook it
     7        properly, it will all get killed, if you do not cook it
     8        properly, it will not.
     9        A.  That last statement is stretching it slightly.
    10
    11   Q.   Why?  If there is a thermal death point, if you cook
    12        it  -----
    13        A.  It is dose related, my Lord.
    14
    15   Q.   Yes, but if you raise every colony of salmonella in meat
    16        comfortably above its thermal death point, is it not
    17        killed?
    18        A.  The temperature will vary with dose and if you have,
    19        say, extremely high levels your temperature would have to
    20        be extremely high.
    21
    22   Q.   May be, but sooner or later it has got a thermal death
    23        point?
    24        A.  Indeed that is the case, quite so.
    25
    26   MR. MORRIS:  With respect, I did not actually ask about
    27        salmonella but the witness responded -----
    28
    29   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I thought you used the word "salmonella", you
    30        see.  Let us go back and look at what you asked because you
    31        certainly left me in some doubt.
    32
    33   MS. STEEL:   Page 20, line 39.
    34
    35   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  It started off above that.  39, did you say?
    36
    37   MS. STEEL:  Yes.
    38
    39   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No, we are above that.
    40
    MS. STEEL:   Yes, Mr. Morris did not ask about salmonella.
    42
    43   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I will come to 39 in a moment, but the
    44        question was put at 20, 24:  "When you said before that
    45        food poisoning organisms are commonly found in the guts of
    46        food animals ---  A.   Yes.  Q. -- does that or does that
    47        not always result in the symptoms of the disease being
    48        shown?"  And salmonella is not a disease.  That is why
    49        I have raised these questions.
    50 
    51        A little later:  "So it is possible that whole flocks, for 
    52        example, of birds may be -- is it possible whole flocks may 
    53        be suffering from disease without it even being known?".
    54        That was the question which was put to you.  That is where
    55        it occurred to me one was confusing salmonella with a
    56        disease.  It is not a disease.
    57
    58   MR. MORRIS:  I was not specifically talking about salmonella.
    59
    60   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, there has to be relationship, with