Day 106 - 23 Mar 95 - Page 22

     
     1
     2   MR. MORRIS:  When you said before that food poisoning organisms
     3        are commonly found in the guts of food animals ---
     4        A.  Yes.
     5
     6   Q.   -- does that or does that not always result in the symptoms
     7        of the disease being shown?
     8        A.  There are variations with different salmonellas, but
     9        the tendency is that you can have quite a high level of
    10        salmonella carriage in poultry without showing any overt
    11        signs of disease.
    12
    13   Q.   Does that apply to other pathological organisms?
    14        A.  Oh, very much so.  Campylobacter is very commonly found
    15        in food animals and it rarely gives rise to disease.
    16
    17   Q.   So it is possible that whole flocks, for example, of birds
    18        may be -- is it possible whole flocks may be suffering from
    19        disease without it even being known?
    20        A.  Absolutely.  I have tested laying flocks personally
         where -----
    22
    23   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  I am having a difficulty here through lack of
    24        knowledge, because time and time again when you ask
    25        questions you use "salmonella" as if it might mean an
    26        illness.  For instance -- I do not know whether it is the
    27        same at all, I am no bacteriologist --  it is apparent that
    28        you can carry E.coli, E.coli 0157: H, in the gut and humans
    29        do, and they are as fit as fleas?
    30        A.  Yes.
    31
    32   Q.   For all I know, the same applies to salmonella.  I have not
    33        been told any different yet.
    34        A.  May I help, my Lord?
    35
    36   Q.   Yes.
    37        A.  I tend to say salmonella meaning the organism and
    38        salmonellosis being the disease.
    39
    40   Q.   Yes, absolutely.  But, for all I know, you can have a
         perfectly healthy chicken with salmonella organisms in its
    42         -- what are they, in the muscle or -----
    43        A.  No, they will be in the gut.
    44
    45   Q.   They will be in the gut like E.coli?
    46        A.  Yes.
    47
    48   Q.   By one method or another the salmonella organism is
    49        transferred to the meat of the bird ---
    50        A.  Yes. 
    51 
    52   Q.   -- when slaughtered? 
    53        A.  Yes.
    54
    55   Q.   I understand how it might be spread, though to start with
    56        it will be the same number of organisms which are
    57        spread  ---
    58        A.  Quite so.
    59
    60   Q.   -- throughout a batch of processed meat?