: Mike:
: If the owner and management has no problem with you taking the leftover food, then it's cool.Flint: It shouldn't be there decision to make. Certainly not the owner.
: Mike:
: You need to remember Flint that it's the OWNER/OPERATOR who borrowed the money from the lending institution, and also invested what he worked his ass off for to save to buy that franchise. The OWNER assumed the risks involved in getting his business started. And if his business stumbles onto a lean period, then he has the right, and the responsibility, to make the tough decisions necessary to keep his store out of the red. Read that original post again.
Flint: And where oh where did the capital come to invest? Why is the majority of wealth controlled by a minority of the population. All the laws pertaining to the use of finance capital are a racket in the interests of the rich against everyone else. Now sometimes, some of us can "get ahead" by being the same kind of exploitive pricks that our bosses were... but it doesn't make it right.
Mike:
The poster TAMPERED WITH THE TIMERS! In effect, that was a perfectly good burger that he lifted to consume for himself. He deprived the McDonald's owner of the potential revenue that could have been made had it been properly sold to a customer that might have ordered it. Again free, % off, or full-price is the owners' decisions when it comes to crew lunches. The owner assumed all the risk in starting the business, so he has the right to set that food policy. What you guys obviously want, is a free all-you-can-eat deal. See how long your employer stays in business with that kind of policy.
Flint: Why is it that you assume that its only the investor who takes risks? Its sure a whole lot easier to take risks when you have the money to do it. If your a worker, you take the risks to your health, to your standard of living, with every bump in the market and decision made by the owner. Forgive me if I don't shed any tears when the boss looses his money... I don't have any to loose! We should have a part in making the decisions that affect us... its called democracy. If all the workers were worker-owners of a cooperative they would make the decision and reap all the benefits. Isn't it just slightly insane if a restraunt can't manage to feed all its employees?
: Mike:
: But you guys are not the ones who put up the capital and assumed all the risks of getting that franchise store off the ground. Think of it THIS way. The owner is YOUR customer! You are selling HIM a product, which is YOUR LABOR! He can't man all the equipment and prepare all that food and beverage by himself! He needs assistance with that, and also needs assistance in the bookkeeping. That's where you guys, the managers, and supervisors come in.
Flint: Do you just not get it? We disagree with the very nature of the relationship. The owners only have access to capital that is built off of profit that was stolen from the workers... their surplus labor.
There is only land to buy because someone has claimed it as their own, ultimately through violence. I am only willing to work for someone else in an employer-employee relationship that is directly exploitive of my labor if I don't have access of the means of production for my own use. Owners, Capitalists, the Rich are all parasites.
Mike: As for the stealing of food or anything else that is the property of the store: get off that "not being paid enough" bullshit! People who shoplift and steal do it mainly for the "excitement" of "getting away with it"!!! Do you really think that poster is going to change his ways after getting a raise to say [the Australian equivalent of] $8.00/hr U.S.?
Flint: Whenever I've had to steal from work it was for something I couldn't afford to buy. If the business were owned by the workers outright, there could never be any theft as how could you steal from yourself? I don't know what fast food restraunts you've been working at, but the ones I'm familiar with pay minimum wage.
: Mike:
: A better idea for the crew! Grow up, stop whining, pay attention, and LEARN your jobs! Then do them to the very best of your abilities, and you will stand a much better chance of getting pay raises that are above-market. Not to mention you will have gained valuable experience that will look good on your resume`, which will lead to better paying jobs in the future.
Flint: Thats right Fellow Workers... don't think about how the system is designed to be exploitive and rob you. Feel guilty about whatever you have to do surivive and work harder. We promise that if you just slave long enough, and perform well enough that one day you too can be a exploitive ass.
: Flint:
: : If we workers were smart we'd realize that every cent of profit is theft. It is unpaid wage! Managers get wage or salary, and many owners pay themselves a salary as well. But profit, profit is something else entirely. It represents all earnings beyond the cost of operation. With a union contract, you can open up the books to the workers... and see exactly how much money they make from your work.
: Mike:
: If profit is outlawed, tell me the other incentives to starting businesses and working. If the business is to grow, add more jobs, and add more items to the menu, then profit is necessary. You have to have something to put back into the business to improve its operation ...and CUSTOMER SERVICE!!! Revenues from the customers are what grow the business, and pay your salaries too! And yes I agree that a big screen TV with surround-sound makes a nice addition to any household! I wish I had one. Maybe one of these days. Also...a Ford Expedition, maybe even a Chevy Suburban (naw scratch that! Piss on Chevy!) would look good in any garage or drive. And can you honestly look anyone in the eye and say a Mustang or a Firebird has no Viagra affect? What about a Harley with its rumbling pipes? I think you get the picture even though you likely won't admit it. You gotta satisfy your wants just like your needs or life ain't fun!
Flint: I've done lots of things without the profit motive. Usually because they are things that need to be done to help other people. Sometimes I do things that I'm interested in simply because I enjoy them. You are not what you consume. Desire is not an occupation. If
you believe that strongly in profit, then turn your local business into a worker's cooperative where every employ receives a share of the profit in addition to their salary. They'll all make decisions to
increase their profit, and work hard to bring it about... or would that cut to much into the owner's greed?
: Mike:
: Yada, yada, yada! It amazes me that people who think the liberal way show boxcars of compassion for shoplifters, thieving employees, and even gang-bangers who rob convenience stores and murder the owners/staffs and customers "for the thrill of it". Oh it's not their fault. They are victims of society. They need to be loved, pittied, and we should NEVER give up on rehabilitating them, even if they go back out and do it over again a thousand times. Consumerism, and those evil capitalists are the ones to blame for these spoiled employees and thugs' actions ...and any other excuse solid liberals can cook up.
Flint: I regard anyone using violent coercion to be an asshole, whether that is your Capitalist Boss, Union Boss, Communist Party Boss, or Gang Boss. They are basically the same kind of authoritarian. I'm not a liberal, I'm a revolutionary. I don't mean to excuse anyones actions but help channel them into constructive activities like democratic, direct-action unions instead of lone acts of theft or sabotage or mindless consumerism or drug addiction.
: But... work your ass off, get the capital together, and enter into a franchise agreement with McD's, Hardee's or BK, and you're automatically an evil, greedy bastard. You're to blame for ALL of society's ills! How dare you actually make money, get out of the red after two or three years of getting off the ground, and actually go beyond breaking even and enter the black! Oh how evil!!!
Flint: No, I only blame the ills of capitalism on capitalism. I've not been blaming rape on how the manager at McDonald's treats you... but I will blame how the manager at McDonald's treat you on the manager. If all managers and bosses treat you pretty much the same... then its a problem with the very position.
Mike: The CEO of my bank makes umpteen times my salary. So what! I don't spend my whole life fretting, whining, and talking union! And I don't go stealing company property either!
Flint: Work at a bank do you? Then your entire job is about the control of finance capital. You think banks do anything productive except restrict access and increase control of the rich? They are a scam, they have always been a scam.
Mike: Regarding fast food crew, those are starter positions, anyone with a quarter of a brain knows that you can't expect to get a fancy apartment, auto, and other nice things as long as you're at that level. That level serves the purpose of you getting your foot in the door during your high school and early college years. I've never seen a P & L statement, but I don't believe the owner will have his business very long if he pays everyone $10 or $12 an hour.
Flint: Actually, according to market projections and recent growth, the majority of new jobs that are replacing middle management and factory work are low wage service oriented. The only areas of good job s growing are biotech and computers (of which I'm in). Workfare will continue to put a squeeze on wages, driving them further down. As to wanting a great home or a fancy car, most folks I know would be happy with health care.
: I know I'm long on this and I apologize, but to close, everyone needs to lose this US against THEM shit, and the extreme union radicals need to take an accounting course or two, and they'll quickly realize that without the cushion of profit, no business will last. Then what would be of the employees? The public dole? Or is living off the system the ultimate objective?
Flint: I've had lots of expierence with economics. Hell, I can program in more computing languages specifically designed for business than you can probably think of. I used to be a big fan of Adam Smith and all the later day libertarian capitalists. And I know they are motivated by Greed (there is a reason they call it a deadly sin, you know).
What are we "extreme union radicals" struggling for? A change in the entire economy where greed, inequality and competion aren't the goal... but rather where charity, equality and cooperation are. An economy of unionized workplaces would be an improvement, but no reason to stop there... how about all worker owned-controlled cooperatives? How about self-sustaining communes? But hey, you got to walk before you can run and we'll take a $1 raise, health care benefits and a grievance-arbitraiton procedure to start with.
: : Solid,
: : Flint
