Day 159 - 20 Jul 95 - Page 07
1 MR. MORRIS: Mr. Monbiot refers to the Brazilian Amazon
2 throughout his statement and his concern is with the whole
3 Amazon area in regard to both soya and to cattle ranching.
4 We have already heard both that McDonald's have received
5 supplies which have emanated from the Mato Grosso and that
6 their northern-most, admitted most northern-most, supply
7 plant is based in Goias which is adjacent to Mato Grosso.
8
9 MR. JUSTICE BELL: All these are points which you made
10 yesterday. I have those points. I am not harassing you.
11 I have to just try and keep the theme of the argument in
12 mind, and you referred me to one paragraph on page 2 which
13 does not seem to be directed at your proposed amendment
14 No. 1 at all. It might have something to do with soya when
15 we get to soya. It might be all part of the knock-on
16 effect, but you have addressed me on the knock-on effect.
17
18 MR. MORRIS: Our understanding of the Mato Grosso area is that
19 while it might be primarily cerrado, that includes areas of
20 rain forest and that the distinction is largely -----
21
22 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Where is the evidence of that?
23
24 MR. MORRIS: That is my belief based upon -----
25
26 MR. JUSTICE BELL: Yes, I know, but you know perfectly well what
27 Neill LJ said and reasonable belief was one part of it.
28 Reasonable belief may be relevant to your counterclaim,
29 I accept that, or any belief, reasonable or unreasonable.
30 What Neill LJ said is that you should believe the words
31 complained of to be true. That is the aspect you are on at
32 the moment; that you should intend to support the defence
33 of justification of the trial. There we are. But (c), The
34 defendants should have reasonable evidence to support the
35 plea, or reasonable grounds for supposing that sufficient
36 evidence to prove the allegations will be available at
37 trial. He said that could include what you have reasonable
38 grounds for supposing you could uncover by discovery or in
39 cross-examination. You cannot have reasonable grounds for
40 supposing that there will be sufficient evidence from the
41 gentleman you have spoken to from FOE because he is not, as
42 far as I am aware, a potential witness in the case.
43
44 MR. MORRIS: If it helps on that subject, if that is the
45 sticking point, we certainly firmly believe what we have
46 said, and that we could ask Charles Secret to make some
47 kind of supplementary statement to that effect.
48
49 MR. JUSTICE BELL: I can only deal on the material I have.
50
51 MR. RAMPTON: So can I.
52
53 MS. STEEL: To be honest, if we are supposed to have a
54 reasonable expectation that there will be such evidence,
55 I think it is quite unlikely, although I suppose by some
56 stretch of the imagination it could be possible that the
57 rain forests campaigner in Friends of the Earth is going to
58 say one thing and Mr. Secret will say: "No, that is a load
59 of rubbish".
60
