Day 131 - 06 Jun 95 - Page 60

     
     1        momentum, and this is what tends to happen within an
     2        organisation; and an organisational changes often takes
     3        three to five years.  It is not at all unusual.
     4
     5   Q.   So that momentum really began to build up -- as Mr. Rampton
     6        would say, to spare your blushes -- when you became
     7        involved to some extent, and Jill Barnes?
     8        A.  Certainly, with Jill Barnes' appointment.  Yes, I would
     9        like to say it was myself.  But you must remember that
    10        McDonald's have suddenly said:  "OK, we want to compare
    11        ourselves with outside industry"; otherwise, they would not
    12        have even asked me to come through the door.  The very fact
    13        that they are beginning to look, they are beginning to
    14        review their systems, shows that they are seeking to get
    15        better and to improve, and they began to build on that.
    16        The APU report was taken as an opportunity to take another
    17        step forward.
    18
    19   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Can you think of any significant improvement,
    20        or anything about McDonald's health and safety procedures
         which the HSE in its report approved of which had come into
    22        effect between your arrival in 1990 and the publication of
    23        the report?
    24        A.  I would have to go to the HSE report and go through
    25        their comments in detail, my Lord.  Certainly, things like
    26        the statistical information which has already been referred
    27        to, and so on.  My starting point for an organisation often
    28        is to say: "We must find out where we stand.  We need to
    29        look at statistics.  We need to look at the operations.  We
    30        need to begin to do an audit of what we have in the
    31        system."  That was put in place.  Whether any of that was
    32        commented upon, I cannot say, because I would have to go
    33        through the detailed report, my Lord.
    34
    35   MR. MORRIS:  I think you said something like:  if you cannot
    36        measure something, you cannot manage it.  That is the sort
    37        of working -----
    38        A.  Yes -- not my quote.
    39
    40   Q.   Aphorism, I think you said?
         A.  Peter Drucker -- not my comment.
    42
    43   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Can you just pause a moment?  I do not know
    44        whether, Mr. Rampton, we have a separate copy of the HSE
    45        report, apart from the one which is actually in the
    46        bundles?  The reason I ask is this, that I am reluctant to
    47        load you with work out of court, but it might be a
    48        considerable help to me on this part of the case if you
    49        were able to read through the report and tell me of
    50        anything which is noted there which you think you may 
    51        have --- 
    52 
    53   THE WITNESS:  May have been put in place?
    54
    55   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  -- been put in place between, let us say,
    56        July 1990 and the time when the unit carried out its
    57        interviews and investigations for the report.  Would you be
    58        prepared to try to do that overnight?
    59        A.  I would be prepared to do that, my Lord.
    60