Day 106 - 23 Mar 95 - Page 15

     
     1        about whether procedures lead to spreading the
     2        micro-organism.
     3
     4        So, I will break off until 10 to 12.  If you do that
     5        exercise it will help me; at least I will know what your
     6        starting point is.  I would like you to do it with regard
     7        to both statements.  If I come back at 10 to 12 and you
     8        say:  "We have only dealt with his proof so far, we would
     9        like to think about his visit statement over the mid-day
    10        adjournment", then you certainly should be able to do
    11        that.  If you can do both statements, it will help.
    12                         (Short Adjournment)
    13
    14   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Yes?
    15
    16   MR. MORRIS:  Mr. North, as regards paragraphs in your statement
    17        from (1) to (10), yes?
    18        A.  Yes.
    19
    20   Q.   Would you accept that is a true statement of your belief?
         A.  Yes.
    22
    23   Q.   As regards paragraphs (15) and (16), is that also a true
    24        statement of your belief, opinion?
    25        A.  Yes.
    26
    27   Q.   We have not been able to look at the other statements yet.
    28
    29   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  No, very well.
    30
    31   MR. MORRIS:  What are your concerns about specifically chicken
    32        and minced meat as used in burgers and food poisoning?
    33        A.  The general concern is the very high level of
    34        salmonella contamination and other micro-organisms,
    35        pathogenic micro-organisms, found in these meats, and that
    36        the processing is such in the large plants as to magnify
    37        the dose in proportion through that processing, so that we
    38        see small amounts, small proportions in the live birds
    39        magnified through the processing, to come out in relatively
    40        high proportion in the actual finished product.
    41
    42   Q.   With the beef, does that same concern apply, the mincing of
    43        beef?
    44        A.  The same concern applies, possibly to a lesser extent.
    45        You added the word "mincing" and, of course, that a central
    46        part of the problem as well.  There is a quantum difference
    47        between intact slabs of meat and minced or, in this case,
    48        comminuted product.  Generally, the distribution of
    49        pathogens is taken to be a surface phenomenon, so that in
    50        an intact slab of meat the contamination is on the surface 
    51        and, therefore, highly accessible to heat and extremely 
    52        vulnerable thereto. 
    53
    54        Once you start mincing the product, of course, you
    55        distribute that contamination throughout the entire
    56        substance of the product and thereby bury it within the
    57        texture of the meat, the product, and, therefore, make it
    58        more difficult to kill when you apply surface heating.  So,
    59        in that sense minced products are more problematical than
    60        the original unprocessed product.