Day 097 - 06 Mar 95 - Page 29

     
     1   MS. STEEL:  No, because Mr. Walker said that they tested for
     2        some specific ones but other ones, it was just the total
     3        viable count and he said that if it went over a certain
     4        level that -- that within those counts there would always
     5        be some that were pathogenic and, no, it is not
     6        specifically referring to E.coli; it is just a general
     7        thing about bacteria in general levels being in the meat,
     8        in the raw meat products.
     9
    10   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  But are you intending E.coli to be included
    11        there?
    12
    13   MS. STEEL:   Not as something that is found routinely, no.
    14
    15   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  That is the point, you see, that if I give
    16        leave in relation to this, one of the things which
    17        McDonald's will have to consider is whether they should
    18        admit the pleading as amended.  They might admit that
    19        pathogenic bacteria are routinely found in the raw meat
    20        products used by McDonald's, but not admit that as a
         consequence customers are at risk of suffering food
    22        poisoning whenever cooking is inadequate for killing all
    23        such bacteria, because the extent of their admission is
    24        only that you have got millions of "bugs", as Mr. Rampton
    25        has from time to time scientifically described them, which
    26        might cause some illness.  You might then want to call
    27        evidence about particular harmful pathogens which might
    28        cause food poisoning and you might be met with:  "Well,
    29        hold on, we have admitted what is pleaded against us and
    30        you cannot call further evidence".  So, what I would
    31        suggest is you have pathogenic bacteria and then including
    32        and specify which pathogenic bacteria which we have a
    33        particular concern for you say are routinely found.
    34
    35        Do you have those at your finger tips now or if you sat
    36        down for a few minutes could you find them out?
    37
    38   MS. STEEL:   In respect of chicken, I think it is fairly easy,
    39        though obviously it would not just be Salmonella.  But the
    40        thing with the beef was that it was what Mr. Walker was
         saying in general about the levels of bacteria, and I do
    42        not think it was specified which particular sorts they
    43        were.
    44
    45   MR. RAMPTON:  My Lord, can I perhaps help?  I think this arises
    46        partly from the use of the term "pathogenic".  There are,
    47        for example, as far as I know, pages and pages -- that is
    48        perhaps an exaggeration -- columns and columns of different
    49        types of coli forms.  It is now known or believed that
    50        E.coli 0157 H7, which is a particular variety, may be 
    51        dangerous to human health.  When you look at a plate and 
    52        you see a colony of, what, 500,000 bacteria, it does not 
    53        follow that all of those bacteria are pathogenic.  They are
    54        just bugs.
    55
    56   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Or that they are pathogenic in that
    57        concentration.
    58
    59   MR. RAMPTON:  Neither, but a whole lot of those creeping
    60        organisms on the plate may be completely harmless.