Day 019 - 27 Jul 94 - Page 13

     
     1        maceration for hatched chicks; it is only the unhatched.
 
     2   MR. JUSTICE BELL:  In case it matters, I am not sure my use of
              the word "hatched" is the same as yours.  By your
     3        terminology, a chick is hatched when there is any breaking
              of the shell?
     4        A.  Yes, when it is outside the shell.
 
     5   Q.   It has to be outside the shell?
              A.  Yes, it is pipping if it is half out.  It pips the
     6        shell when it puts its beak through and it is emerging.
 
     7   Q.   So its body could still be in the shell?
              A.  Yes.
     8
         Q.   Its beak and head has come through; any part of it is out
     9        with the shell then it is hatched?
              A.  If all of it is outside the shell, it is fully
    10        hatched.  It is hatching if it is halfway out, let us say.
 
    MS. STEEL:   With the carbon dioxide, how long does it take for
              a chick to die using that method?
    12        A.  I think it is of the order of two to three minutes.
              That is the time to cessation of physical activity,
    13        including gagging movements.
 
    14   Q.   So that is two to three minutes when it is -----
              A.  Yes.  I have not done electrocardiograms, that is
    15        measuring the heart function in that situation, but it
              would not surprise me if cardiac function persists for
    16        longer.  However, it depends obviously how you define
              death.  An important feature from an humane point of view
    17        is firstly time to loss of consciousness; secondly, time
              to cessation of breathing.
    18
         Q.   Right.  Physical activity.  It would still be conscious if
    19        it is having physical activity?
              A.  No, suitable criteria of loss of consciousness in this
    20        particular situation is time to when the birds fall over;
              time to recumbency.
    21
         Q.   Can you describe exactly how the process works?
    22        A.  I am having difficulty in picturing the exact
              facilities used at Sun Valley, so may I describe ones
    23        which are vivid in my memory at another hatchery?
 
    24   Q.   Would Sun Valley be similar?
 
    25   MR. RAMPTON:  It might be useful if Dr. Gregory were asked the
              date of his visit to the hatchery at Sun Valley that he is 
    26        talking about. 
              A.  It was two years ago. 
    27
         MR. JUSTICE BELL:  Sometime in 1992?
    28        A.  It was the blackcurrant season.  They have a
              blackcurrant orchard just outside.  It was July 1992.
    29
         MS. STEEL:   I think you said that yesterday -- I remember the
    30        blackcurrant part.
              A.  The type of facilities we used would be a container