: : Don: They certainly are not capitalist. The state retains ownership of much industry, a hold over from their old days as communists. They state retains considerable control over industry that is not state owned, so it is basically fascist. : Look your prejudice is showing, what's the matter cant drop the "evil empire" issues even though the cold war is over? They have far greater deregulation and "free" marketeering than your nation, published sources prove this but your not interested in fact DOGMATIST.
Don: What published sources?
: : Don: Well. I happen to believe that the USSR and PRC were genuine attempts at communism.
: Then your easily taken in then arent you, what do you think Gaddafi's Libya is Free and Democratic because it claims to be aswell?
Don: I know Libya isn't free. I have no reason to think that the USSR and the PRC were not genuine attempts at communism. The commies in Russia started off as a small group who happened to get lucky because of their opposition to involvement in WW1. I have no reason to believe they were not well intentioned.
: :I think we can all agree that "true" communism was not achieved, but that is because it can never be achieved--it will never work.
: Ignoring the precedents of the family here and wait for it....a fall back on one dimensional thought.
Don: The family only bears a superficial relationship to communism. And even if families represented true communism, it's a huge logical leap to equate them with large political units.
: :The fact remains that communism has *never* been correlated with freedom.
: Define freedom?
Don: Strict limitations on the power of the government to control my life.
: : Don: Unlike socialists, communists, and fascists, the libertarians are nice people who don't hate anyone.
: Prejudice again, your virtually a racist bastard Don,
Don: I am not racist. Whatever gave you that idea?
:and I take it your that well programmed you cant tell when I'm in conflict with your ideology and when I'm in conflict with you that fact that capitalism is a digrace etc. isnt an insult to any real libertarian
Don: I think you are projecting. I feel nothing but love for the world. You on the other hand seem to have a problem with hate.
:who cares more about individual civil liberty and freedom than market economics and property or wealth but it clearly is with you, well let your priorities be clear then.
Don: As a point in fact, my primary concern is individual liberty. Market economics only concearns me because I am becoming aware that the free market is the only system compatable with liberty.
: : Don: In fascism, the state dominates and controls industry.
: Dont BULLSHIT me in Franco's Spain, in Mussolini's Italy, in Hitlers Germany, in Pinochets Chile they all will fully collaborated and bought into the ideology and made it work.
Don: And they were all subsurvient to the state.
: :One of the reasons for fascism was to avoid the uncertainty of the market, through state control.
: Stupid, it was to avoid the uncertainty of the reactions of the workers to the market that was impoverishing them left, right and centre while apparently effecting no one who was wealthy or establishment. It was a police state in the pay of capitalists.
Don: No! It was to protect the workers from the uncertainty of the free market.
: :Of course, the market problems in the '20s and '30s were due to state intervension, but the fascists didn't understand this.
: Yeah right, I think there's a lot you dont understand but you understand that unquestioning belief in dogmatic faith can satisfy your needs to create situations in which you can benefit from others misery.
Don: Talk about dogmatic!
: : Don: In the past, the PRC had only state owned industry. The PRC could not compete with the west, so they undertook "market reforms". They did not develop a free-market, but rather a quasi-fascist system. Fascism is a truly evil system, because it actually works. Socialism does not work, so while it is indeed evil it is a short lived evil.
: What the fuck?! You've been telling me that facism and socialism are the same but now their different because facism is successful and socialism isnt? How the hell if they're organised the same damn way does one succeed and one fail?!! If your talking about the collapse of the USSR then perhaps it had something to do with the fact that all despotism cant stand the test of time, something that is marked about capitalism too.
Don: Relax. Calm down. Listen. I never said fascism and socialism were the same. They are similar, but not the same. They are both economic systems. Nothing less, nothing more. In socialism, all industry is owned by the state (or in common ownership for the imaginary case of stateless socialism). In fascism, industry is privitly owned but state controlled. Similar (at least to a free market libertarian), but not the same.
: : Don: I never said it was alright in Chile. I support the reforms while opposing the evil. The evils in Chile were not due to free-market forces.
: Of course they fucking well where a democratically elected government was usurped and destroyed by a military dictatorship with the free market as their personal faith, no one wanted it!! How is it free if it's imposed?!! Perhaps the free will element doesnt matter to you, just the defence of wealth and property and you'll willfully collaborate with dictatorship and the military to ensure this, in which case your a facist not just a dogmatist.
Don: Again, the bad things that happened in Chile were not due to the free market.
: : Don: Yes, but the free-market reforms in Chile were not contrary to freedom. The fact that they occurred at the same time as government sponsered evils does not change this.
: OF COURSE IT DOES, WHAT PART DONT YOU UNDERSTAND, THEY DID NOT FREELY CHOOSE IT, THEY WHERE NOT ALLOWED TO EXERCISE THEIR FREEWILL, THEY WHERE EXECUTED!! The so called freedom is going to mean a lot to you if your dead!!
Don: Again, the horrors that occured were not due to the free market.
: :Free-market reforms can be undertaken one bit at a time--because the free-market works. Socialism doesn't work.
: Say it enough times and you'll believe it but I wont I can see through your DOGMATIC OPIUM.
Don: DOGMATIC OPIUM?
: :That's why socialists demand this ideal situation where it doesn't have to compete with other systems, and that's why the socialists experiments that have occured have involved repression and bloodshed.
: Bullshit, I mean how much shit do we need? There more than enough fertiliser around here already, you divide the dictatorial violence of pinochet from the end result of capitalist "freedom" in Chile but it's all different in the instance of socialism?
Don: Yes. Socialist systems tend to result in massive bloodshed. Free market socities rarely do.
: : Don: No, I want to see you go to the nearest farm and talk land reform. That should be fun to watch.
: It says in the bible you cant own land that's enough for me, I'll talk with your sort when I've an assault rifle handy.
Don: Where in the bible? Oh, and thanks for reinforcing my dogma that socialists are bloodthirsty.
