Barry:
<: : It is about people producing what they actually need (and want) instead of producing something that just happens to make some particular capitalist a bigger than average profit (such as war armaments which, paid for by taxed citizens who do not 'consume' what they purchase, are not even subject to the 'free market' purportedly defended by these instruments of death).>Gee:
<: The people near the forest decide that they really want to make lots of boats. The folk further down the way want the wood for barns and furniture. Oops - their 'self defined' "needs" have come into conflict over the matter of wood and time being finite. So they must come to an agreement of mutual disatisfaction, or try to trade respective products...>
bill:
The desire for wood products may be infinite. Objective need is measurable. The sustainability of the forest is also measurable. Balancing objective needs with sustainable resources is part of a social process in which personal "desires" must be sacrificed in the face of hard, natural reality...like wanting more sun at the North Pole.
<...Then they get invaded and its all over - maybe that so called 'public good' which is defence.>
bill:
By who? A band of capitalists that want to rape the forests for money?
Gee
<: Socialism assumes people will readily agree, that conflict will be resolved by the happy compromisers. Big assumptions.>
bill:
People will respond as people. The main difference is that the irrational scramble for money for the mere sake of money will no longer need to be part of the equation in seeking conflict resolution.
Barry:
: : It is about people receiving all shares of what they produce (with, of course, a fund set aside for insurance, investment, and those unable to work---a fund determined by the workers) instead of handing over most of what they produce to the capitalist simply because the capitalist has a monopoly on the means of production.
Gee:
: What about those who want it all now, and dont wich to be 'exploited' for future safety?...
bill:
Sounds like a spoiled child. How do You handle a spoiled child?
Gee:
<...What about those who produce less, regardless of the non-panacea of rotation, but take more - and their potential conflict with those who produce more and desire to influence where their efforts are directed to?
bill:
The measurement of who produces more and who less is part of the capitalist mentality that is preoccupied with deriving profit from the labor of others. As long as the money symbol rules, such considerations remain paramount.
Gee:
: More meetings and assumptions of happy compromise?
bill:
I'm open to suggestions. Dr. Spock?
Barry:
: : And it, most importantly, is about people doing some of each of the work necessary to sustain the people so everyone can develop as a human being to the utmost of his and her capacity.
Gee:
: Whether they want to or not, in directions they wish to pursue or not - all at the behest of some compromise 'agreed' scheme.
bill:
The 'agreed' presumably means "agreed". If the primary goal is to "sustain the people so everyone can develop as a human being to the utmost of his and her capacity", how can this be any less liberating than the "free play of the market" where workers have absolutely NO say about their living conditions or environment in which they work.
Barry:
: : Those who oppose the above aims are either woefully ignorant about socialism's aims---or the capitalist exploiters (and spokespersons) who benefit from such ignorance.
Gee:
: Or they are just deeply concerned about what will actually happen when the above doctrine 'hits the streets' of reality.
bill:
As in...
: : Workers of the World Unite!
: You have only eachother to force an overthrow of the system
