bill-
:: Covert coercion thrives on deception.
Gee-
:I think were wandering on to fraudulent and intentional misrepresentation of the truth - I would consider that to be a coercion. However I think most advertising etc does not qualify as fraud, its open ended it does (or rather should) reinforces an ethic of "buyer beware" but I think thats about seeking whats best for you not about mistrust.
bill:
Well that's quite a spin on the word "beware". The lifeguard's admonition is beneficial - not the shark.
Gee:
I also think 'consumerism' in the west has moved away from 'buyer beware' to the nanny state mentality of blaming the hammer manufacturer when you hit your thumb -thats a terribly condescending regulative framework in which to work, assumed guilty until proved innocent.
bill:
While I agree that there are some cases of abuse, these are highly publicized to whip up public support for a relaxation on safety regulations - predominantly by firms such as those that mount gas tanks in vulnerable locations to save a buck.
bill:
::Your use of the term "slavery" is hyperbole. As above - I object to paying one penny to the military - but I would hardly call it "slavery".
Gee:
:What else is it then? You are working in part to support a project you disagree with. If it isnt slavery then explain what it is?
"Slavery is the obligation to labor for the benefit of
the master, without the contract of consent of the servant." (websters, 1828)
bill:
Interesting. Your dictionary was apparently written during the period of slavery in the U.S. My dictionary - Websters International 1976 provides the following:
"1. The owning or keeping of slaves as a practice or institution; slaveholding.
2. The condition of a slave; bondage; servitude.
3. A condition of submission to or domination by some influence, habit, etc.
4. hard, continuous work like that done by slaves; drudgery."
The tone is less about contracts, more about human suffering.
Gee:
:Did you give consent?
bill:
Hell, I wasn't even properly asked!
bill:
::You might consider the possibility that guarantees of housing, education, healthcare, etc. is a general enhancement of 'freedom' for a society as a whole. This perspective can be found in Amartya Sen's book - Development As Freedom.
Gee:
:Regardless of the potential benefits of the above - it is only useful when people are happy to contribute to them, and they are run with the intent of generating opportunities, not just as vehicles for political careers and ever more plunder.
bill:
Yes - and that's the point of Sen's model - it can only be accomplished in a true democracy.
bill:
: You also might want to glance at a book by Douglas Rushkoff - simply titled:"Coercion".
Gee:
:Its a reasonable book. The thrust of it seems to be to approach life with the healthy skeptism of a thinking mind, not the dulled credulity of the unthinking one.
bill:
I haven't finished the book, but so far it's a hell of a lot more than just "healthy skepticism" - or if it is, it is the sort of "healthy skepticism" that someone like Chomsky has about rationales for American foreign policy.
Gee:
:Disagree with what he terms coercion though, seems to think persuasion is coercion, he also describes it all as some conspiracy and makes 'the masses' out to be stupid fools too often to be taken seriously.
bill:
Well...(skipping to the back of the book)
"Coercion is much more debilitating than persuasion or even influence. Persuasion is simply an attempt to steer someone's thinking by using logic. Influence is the act of applying readily discernible pressure. Coercion seeks to stymie our rational processes in order to make us act against - or, at the very least, without - our better judgement. Once immersed in a coercive system, we act without conscious control. We act automatically, from a place that has little to do with reason." (p. 303)
It is This place that seems to be the subject of the book, and the deliberate deception of a population for that greatest of purposes - profit - is one of the engines driving us there.
