: : And in each case their vision was based on the rightfulness of private property, an heirarchy, and a total and unquestioning belief in one God. More's 'Utopia' represents a society that I think you would be the first to rebel in.: Unfortunately these individuals where victims of their circumstances and the prevailing attitudes of their times but as indicments of the present order they are interesting. Besides Jesus himself was profoundly anti-state/hierarchy and didnt pull any punches about mammon. Property or God, Frenchy?
Which individuals exactly? More?
If Jesus was profoundly anti-state, why did he say to render unto Ceasar what was Ceasar's? The Catholic Church has always recognised the legitimacy of proerly constituted authority. Hierarchy is a big thing in the Catholic Church. I don't think you really have a handle on this.
: : Ahh, the Devil can quote the Bible, no?
: Now come on Frenchy I'm not exactly that powerful.
: :Your going a wee bit overboard here good buddy.
: Afraid not.
: :Christianity and personal salvation are open to all, rich and poor alike.
: There is no class structure in Heaven so I can see how class wont pose a restriction to entry no but if you have lived your life contrary to the prayer of Christ 'Let it be done on earth as it is in heaven' or served mammon more than God or your fellow man then expect a stint in perguratory.
Only God can judge a man's interior, so we'll just have to wait and see where I wind up (I have a hunch it will be purgatory, but not for the reasons you mention).
: :It is spiritually classless.
: No it's materially classless.
: :To bad for you and the Liberation Theologists.
: Why's that? Given your vast knowledge and reading in Liberation Theology.
Because Liberation Theology is nothing more than an unholy combination of Catholicism and Communism; they are mutually incompatable.
: :Communism, the sort espoused by Marx, doesn't go over very well w/ traditional Catholicism.
: What do you mean by traditional? Forgetting that their are anarchist strains and social democratic strains of liberation theology and LT marxism is very different from conventional or academic marxism, more of a christian humanism than political ideology, I'd have said that even the variety you oppose was truer to the first church and genuine tradition.
Some small sects were Communistic, but they were condemned early on. Dittos the later ones.
: Waht you refer to as tradition is an imaginary false memory of a hierarchical richmans apologist church which was invented in a feat of historical revision by medieval priests.
OK, I don't mind you telling me a little more. Go on. Tell me about the inventions.
: :And Catholicism is certainly not 'anti-state', its necessity being recognised all through Church history;
: Because in the gospel, I think it was Paul, said every state was put in place by God? Is that more important than Jesus stating 'among the pagans there are kings, this is not how it is to be among you' or 'let it be done on earth as it is in heaven' or the example of Gideon in the Old Testiment when he shuned authority?
We have a problem here. Jesus and God are co-equal as part of the Trinity. If there is a contradiction, it is in our understanding of Scripture. Shunninh UNLAWFUL authority is one thing, shunning lawful authority is another. You wouldn't say that the Jews had an obligation to live under the Pharohs, would you?
: :read 'Utopia', tell me if you'd really want to live in that society.
: I have done, provided I wasnt interfered with to much I could live their fine, I appreciate the Guild system it is a form of medievil syndicalism.
No, not according to what you'd prefer, according to the utopia of More. You would be subjected to interference as deemed necessary.
: :Did you know that slavery is allowed there? Do you know who the slaves are?
: The slaves in Mores Utopia where convicted criminals, if I'm not wrong and I think that serving the community is a fitting punishment for anti or asocial behaviour.
Criminals and POW's. POW's? Yup, even in Utopia there were times when men went to war. But they always won.
