- Capitalism and Alternatives -

Are you arguing for efficiency rather than freedom

In Reply to: And socialist production, too posted by Stoller on January 11, 19100 at 10:33:08:

: Well, let's make it playstations and (M)TVs then... or these computers we use---they are all examples of Fordism.

Does that make it good? Are you arguing for efficiency rather than freedom, how very capitalist.

: It was done LESS EFFICIENTLY, Lark. Before Fordism, cars cost so much only the idle rich could afford them. And that is what the silly Morrisian artisan 'socialism' idealizes---don't you and RD get it?

So you are arguing for efficiency, that is state capitalism not freedom. Cars where the forte of the rich because they where status symbols etc. it is not mass production and efficiency that brought them to all, if it was we might aswell just begin lauding the pursuit of profit and forget about freedom altogether.

: Stoller:
: There is a worker to put on doors; there is another putting on windshields. There are individuals who apply paint; there are individals who apply finish to the paint. Etc., etc.

There are machines to do that barry.

: OK, let's do away with efficiency and go back to the middle ages...

Or perhaps we could do away with capitalist conceptions of efficiency and have freedom.

:Or let's reconsider job rotation so everyone can still have industrial abundance WITHOUT consigning any one segment of the population to doing ALL the unskilled work

So we can spread out that alienation and have everyone equally immierated, yes I can see that being really popular.

:(or would that interfere with your post-graduate plans to have skilled work exclusively at the expense of many other uneducated workers?).

OK Barry are we debating here or are you just using this as an opportunity to slander me and accuse me of the most horrendous things?

Follow Ups:

• Efficiency (i.e. material abundance) is a precondition for freedom Stoller January 13 19100 (2)
  • Hmmm, so there where no 'primative communists' Lark January 14 19100 (1)
    • That kind of anti-untopian sentiment Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 15 19100 (0)
• Our goal should be to REVERSE the misery caused by capitalism, not so supercede it. Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 12 19100 (14)
  • You conflate social relations with mode of production Stoller January 13 19100 (13)
    • You're arguing in a circle. Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 14 19100 (12)
      • No, I'm not; your history is wrong Stoller January 14 19100 (11)
        • You just deleted all my data! Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 15 19100 (10)
          • A lesson in the dialectic of historical materialism (better) Barry Stoller January 16 19100 (8)
            • the idea of inevitable historical progress is a myth Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 16 19100 (7)
              • The idea of reversing history is reactionary Barry Stoller January 16 19100 (6)
                • You've used that word three times already, do you think it bothers me? Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 17 19100 (5)
                  • Not my intention (technical term) Barry Stoller January 18 19100 (4)
                    • I'm advocating the freedom to live one's life as one CHOOSES Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 18 19100 (3)
                      • What an appalling post! Stoller January 19 19100 (2)
                        • Can you define 'liberal' please, and explain why you think it's an insult? Nikhil Jaikumar DSA MA, USA January 19 19100 (1)
                          • Liberal Barry Stoller January 19 19100 (0)
          • A lesson in thedialectic of historical materialism Barry Stoller January 16 19100 (0)