: : :
: : : Well, I dont know "since when" since I dont know if its a law of any kind, but.... when an ignorant bunch are cruely torturing and killing animals in the name of some stupid religious and/or traditional reason than it should be stopped and outlawed.: : Perhaps the irony of my statement was lost on you. Nevermind.
: It mustve been since I still dont get it.
: : Who are you to call the Hopi ignorant? Whta do you know about the situation? Who are you to say that their religion and traditions are 'stupid'?
: All I know about the "Hopi" is what I read on this board about them basically torturing and killing the damn birds. As I said, I dont give a crap what the reason for doing so is; when any person of any color tortures and kills any animal for any reason it infuriates me and when those practices are performed in the name of any religion it makes it all the more worse. I dont believe in any sort of God and I strongly find the entire notion of one to be ridiculous so therefore IMO to kill/torture animals in the name of a God/Gods is an entirely ignorant act based on an ignorant belief. Whats really pathetic is that its illegal to capture, restrain, smother and murder an eagle but as long as its done in the name of some foolish religion than its ok. They should be fined and then jailed if they refuse to stop.
Exactly the same argument could be directed right back at you, that you are being ignorant and ridiculous in denying the hopi. All you have done is to assume that you are right.
The hopi lknow that they are right and are justified in what they are doing. They have performed this rite for as long as they can remember.
Now you, johnny born lately, come along and say, 'oh your culture that you have practised for many long yearrs, it's just CRAP'.
: :If something fails to accord to the standard of the whiteman, does that automatically render it barbaric?
:
: What a silly, paranoid question. The sheer cruel, unnecessary, heartless nature of the act renders is it barbaric.
No, you consider it barbaric because you do not understand it. Just as people from other cultures woul;d copnsider some of what the whiteman does barbaric because they do not understand it.
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: : As far as i can see YOU are not a member of the Hopi. As far as i can see tehy should be left to govern themselves so far as possible. if they choose to indulge in these religous ceremonies then what of it. I fail to see how it relates to you at all.
: Are you retarded?
real mature. No iam am not. Are you?
:It relates to me because the topic was brought up and I responded to it. It relates to me because I also share this world w/ the wonderful animals which enhabit it and I dont appreciate them being treated in such a manner. The Hopi can indulge in whatever they like, just as long as they arent performing cruel, barbaric acts on animals...or people for that matter.
I'm sorry i forgot you can do whatever you like. No matter if a people wants to live according to their own culture, i see that now they must all be called to account before the standard of the almightly jeff.
I consider that american indians have a right to live autonomously on whatever land that has not yet been stolen from them and do not appreciate ignorant men coming along and trying to tell such an ancient culture how they should or should not live.
: : I would suggest to you that white men are far more responsible for suffering of animals (enmasse) than any tribe of indians ever will be (you've sited one instance for the hopi; how many could i site for white men, i shudder to think).
: Yes, thats probably very true. Im sure I could give countless examples of the "white mans" cruel, barbaric behavior towards animals as well but so the hell what. This topic was about a specific act done by a specific group; lay off w/ your implied racist crap.
The point being get your own house in order before you start criticising other cultures.
Anyway if you are so right, then i am sure everybody who is a white american will agree with you and it will all the abuses in whiremen's culture will stop. What that's not going to happen? Then could it be that you are not right, that everybody does not agree with you?
And the Hopi? They are just another group that does not agree with your sanitised view of the world.
: : : 2. I dont wear cow skin or any kind of leather shoes or stuff my fat face full of plump turkey flesh in the name of an equally stupid and cruel tradition either. I actually have a working brain of my own and I dont need to follow along w/ everything society does. Since when is everything that society does considered "gospel" anyway?
[snip]
: : : : Aside from that exactly why do the indians do it. Mayhaps it has some strong religous significance for them as perhaps not eating your grandmother or killing your children has moral significnace for you (note i am not postulating moral relativism here).
: : : I dont give a crap what their reasons are for doing it. Its cruel and unnecessary no matter the reason (except if they were starving to death and had no other means of food, and if they were to kill the bird as quickly and gently as possible). They, however, are not starving; they are hurting and killing the animals for their ignorant beliefs.
You don't KNOW it is cruel or unnecessary, YOU by your own admission have not even taken the time to look into the matter. YOU assume it to be so. It is hypocrasy for YOU to be talking about ignorance when YOU are so ignorant of Hopi culture.
: : Again, who are you to call them 'ignorant'. Perhaps they consider it necessary. How do you know they are not right? Have you delved into Indian religion so you can categorically announce that their beliefs are false? Or are you just a member of the dominant christian tradition?
: Necessary to be cruel and murder animals in a really evil way? I dont think so. Again, they may find it necessary to do so for their religious reasons but IMO that makes them ignorant to reality. How do I know? Well how do I know that pigs dont fly or how do I know that its never going to rain milk? I believe in reality.
You know shit, you know? You may say they are blinded by ignorance they would say that you are blinded by prejudice. Still i have heard you offer no support why they are wrong. You in all your glorious arrogance have just assumed them to be wrong. I spit on you like the dog you are for this.
YOU cannot prove matters of faith, ergo your assumption that they are ignorant of reality is just plain wrong.
: : : : If it doesn't seem right to you, maybe that's just because you don't understand it...
: : : Maybe not. Maybe Im able to discern between right and wrong. Maybe I have some intellegence. Maybe I do understand that when unsophisticated cultures cruely kill and torture animals for pointless, fictitous religious reasons that it is wrong.
: : You are truly deplorable. Your attitude stinks. To call their culture 'unsophisticated' recalls to me the attitude of early american settlers intent upon 'killing the savages'. Your attitude seems to suggest that you would not give one wit if their entire culture were to be extinguished from the earth and replaced with beef cattle farms. If that is the world you desire then you are truly deserving of my contempt.
: : You can take your cultural imperialism and stick it.
: Well thanks, thats very kind. Very paranoid as well. You evidently have never read anything Ive ever said here before and arent informed about what I actually do stand for. Cattle farms? What a stupid thing to assume. Does it make sense to you that if Im offended at the idea of killing a few birds that Im also going to be repulsed at the idea of cattle "farms"?
You sir are the one who started talking about the 'unsophisticated; culture. You are also the one who is advocating the destruction of a centuries old culture.
