: DDN: "Tell it to the ladies. They LOVE us fighting for them."Kevin: Right buddy... most women I know are sick of macho bullshit. Most women I know think men who try to act "manly" are just silly. As for women demanding men make the money, no matter how... What the fuck are you talking about? Women are no more greedy than men as far as money is concerned,
.
DDN: Women have a greater need for a sense of "security" and hence are more concerned about things like where their next meal is coming from and how soft their next bed will be. Since money is the primary means for attaining and securing these ameneties, women have their own unique brand of lust for amassing it, and yes, that instinct in conjunction with various other abarrant sociological factors spawns a vast amount feminine greed. I'm not saying that men aren't greedy; I'm just highlighting the fact that women are often more susceptible to it than men are for biological reasons if nothing else. But I can see how this observation would piss you off since its so unpopular these days to say anything negative about women.
Kevin:
.and when you consider that most of the wealth is in the hands of men,
DDN: I'm not so sure that's the case, at least not in the US. First of all, since women generally outlive their stressed out husbands, there's a vast population of elderly widows that are sitting on the savings and benefits their husbands left behind. Secondly, in this country, for the most part, when two people get hitched they own almost everything jointly - at least that's how divorce court judges see it. Just watch what happens whenever Mr. Super Big Bucks gives his wife the axe (or vice versa) - he gets taken to the cleaners. You can say that most of the wealth is the hands men but you need to recognize that most of the men are in the hands of women. Its a sign of their superior intelligence that they understand that "wealth" is not necessarily just greenbacks - sometimes it's a MAN. If you equate "wealth" with only greenbacks then you'll naturally have a hard time understanding how female control and manipulation of men is actually a form of greed.
Kevin:
. then doesn't it seem silly to say that women are to blame? Are you telling me that without women, men would all get along fine in a communist society?
DDN: Speaking strictly in terms of economics and distribution of wealth, yes, I think they would fair much better. But, of course, it's a rediculous proposition for other obvious reasons.
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: DDN: "Is that why there's more women on the planet right now then men? Seems to me that lots of people of both genders get killed every year."
Kevin:
Yup, and it is almost exclusively men who are responsible for all those deaths. Men kill men in war, in fights over money, drugs, women,
DDN: Excuse me? Did you say WOMEN?
Kevin:
or some other disagreement. Men kill women who are their partners, their alleged lovers, out of possessiveness and jealousy
..
DDN: Yes, sometimes because they are required to live their lives in fear of relationship termination and infidelity, a state you apparently find acceptable. But no one dare ask WHY some men are possesive and jealous. That would open up a sociological can of worms that would implicate women, and we can't have that now can we? In fact we're not allowed to look at anything in terms of the systems in which they are embedded. Then we might actually start to understand what's really happening with us as a race and start behaving more constructively as men AND as women. But apparently such a route does not serve the interests of whomever it is that programmed your brain.
Kevin:
..Women kill men almost exclusively in self-defense (ie. abusive relationships.) If you cannot see a difference, and if you cannot see who is largely responsible for this, then you are wilfully blind.
DDN: If you cannot see that we are all in this mess together (men AND women), that we all are hepling to perpetuate it, and that we are all pretty much equally screwed by the powers that be, then your programming has been successful and you won't have to worry about ruffling to many feathers in this life.
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: DDN: "Would you rather be murdered or die of prostrate cancer or heart failure? I think we're splitting hairs here, aren't we?"
Kevin:
..Tell that to the mothers of the women killed in Montreal on December 6.
DDN: F_ck the mothers. F_ck them! What the hell is this bullsh_t? Some women got killed by a man and now some sick media hungry psychos want to turn it into a world wide smear campaign against the entire male gender. What kind of lame bullsh_t is that?
---------------------------
Kevin:
..Tell that to the families of women murdered by men each year because of possessive jealousy. I can prevent heart disease by changing my diet. I can't prevent someone killing me because I decide I don't want to be in a relationship with him anymore.
DDN: Huh? Why not? Why not just leave before they have a chance to kill you? And you think you have complete control over what your eat? 80% of everything on our grocery store shelves now has untested genetically engineered components. Did you know that? Do you know where each ingredient in everything that you eat comes from?
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: DDN: "And men are targeted to die in war because of their gender. They're "targeted" for all manner of dangerous things because of their gender: climbing roofs, mining coal, hunting, farming, etc."
Kevin: Wars are male-based aggression. Women's murders are also male-based aggression. As for the other issues, you can blame dangers in the work-place on capitalism if you want, and I'd be right there behind you . It doesn't change the fact that we live in a sexist, oppressive society that condones violence against women.
: DDN: "If a man and a woman happen upon a burning house with people trapped inside, which one is generally expected to run into the inferno and perform a rescue? The man. Why? Because of his gender. Women in the US have been taught to ignore such fundamental parts of reality and have consequently engendered the hate of men."
Kevin: Men are raised to be the rescuers... I agree, it's wrong and it hurts both men and women.
DDN: Why is it wrong? Men are bigger, stronger, and faster. It's the right tool for the job, isn't it? Would you use a screwdriver to pound nails when there's a hammer sitting there right next to it? Are you afraid you'd hurt the hammer's feelings otherwise?
Kevin:
Let's change it.
DDN: Good God, change it to what? I don't want my girlfriend running into the burning house ahead of me anymore than SHE wants to. I want her to RESPECT me for having the superior strength, speed, brawn, and courage for taking the intiative and saving the day. What kind of pussyfied world are you lookin' to live in anyway?
Kevin: It still remains that we are in a sexist oppressive society that condones violence against women.
DDN: Maybe, but that doesn't mean we should enforce 50/50 male/female quotas for fire departments. That would be shear idiocy. Please say you agee, for God's sake, please.
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: DDN: "This is so screwed, Kevin. Y'all aren't going to be happy until I confess that women aren't anything other than completely innocent victims without any power or authority whatsoever."
Kevin: I would never suggest this. What I would suggest is that the power and authority that women have today (in general and as individuals) has come out of a massive struggle, and that it is unfair to expect them to struggle against such issues as domestic violence and gender discrimination. I would suggest you have the power to change that in some small way, as do I.
DDN: Again, I agree with you, but, again, the solution is not to FORCE (or even desire) men and women to be exactly the same as Tonya suggested and which sparked this entire debate.
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: DDN: "Haven't you ever had a girlfriend? They run EVERYTHING. Pussy is such a commodity in the US that you can't even trust your own best male friends in the presence of your significant other."
Kevin: Let me finish that for you... "or they might rape her?"
DDN: Jesus, do you have some kind of rapist phobia? That was the furthest thing from my mind. My concern would be that they would be deprived and horny enough to "flirt" with her and perhaps eventually spark her interest and make a move on her. If that's akin to rape?
Kevin:
..By the way, what's this commodity bullshit? You are pathetically transparent. You clearly consider women one of two things: either their the enemy (the evil sucubus) or else they are your (or some other man's) property. Does this not seem a little ridiculous to you?
DDN: Yes, it does. Fortunately it does not reflect my belief system.
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: DDN: "Generally only WOMEN are aware of their true street value and they generally abuse it to the point of absurdity. Men over here, for the most part, are little more than whimpering little puppies jumping through hoops for doggy biscuits."
Kevin: Did you make this up all on your own or did you borrow it from Hollywood?
DDN: Hollywood, since you mentioned it, is reflecting and refueling this reality.
Kevin: Sexist bullshit through and through. The world is about more than sex, and most women I know can see that. A few men are learning. Will you?
DDN: Learning what? How to be the powerless, dickless, little doggie jumping through hoops. How to be a pathetic doe-faced, pouting little mommy's boy that never farts, burps, or drinks and is scared to death to open doors for women and being labeled a sexist pig? No thanks.
Yes, there's more to the world than sex, but it ranks up there pretty high, doesn't it?
----------------------------------------------------
: DDN: "And any man that's ever been on the other end of a woman's wrath knows that being brutally murdered is not the worst thing that can happen to you."
Kevin: Who the fuck are you to say this? Have you ever been murdered? Give me a break with the scorned by love bullshit. It happens to everyone,
DDN: Why does that make it OK? If EVERYONE was being beaten and murdered would that make it OK?
Kevin:
.It happens to everyone, it's a messed up part of society that encourages us to become possessive and jealous, but it is not the same as an abusive or murderous relationship.
DDN: Eh? It was "the same" a few SECONDS ago when you blamed abusive and murderous relationships on possessiveness and jealousy. Why the sudden radical change of mind? And where do you get off suggesting that abusive relationships, where men are physically abusing women, have no sociological component? Everything ELSE does. How is it that at soon as a man's fist makes contact with a woman's face that suddenly their abusive relationship is seen as existing in vacuum independent of all other forces of nature, circumstances, sociology, etc.? And how is it that everything wrong that women do to men is not seen as wrong unless they some violent physical event takes place? You wanna talk about "fair" lets talk about THAT. Gimme a break.
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: DDN: "No problem with you there. What I won't do, however, is lay down and take blame for EVERYTHING. What I won't do is let women get away with the evil hand they have in our collective state of affairs: their insatiable greed for material things, their twisted psychological manipulations of men, and their big, secret, nation-wide puSSy conspiracy."
Kevin: You are truly a sad, sad case if you believe all (or even one) of these claims. Of course women can be manipulative. So can men
..
DDN: Kevin, young man, you'll have to learn the hard way just like the rest of us poor western slobs but I'll tell it to you like it is anyway (free of charge):
As a man you are not even capable of beginning to perceive the depth and mastery of manipulation that women have achieved and implement as a matter of routine.
------------------------------------------------
Kevin:
.It is wrong and it sucks. Let's change it.
DDN: By becoming a unisex world? Do we have to bring the entire human experiment to its knees (and perhaps to its destruction) in order to bring an end manipulative relationships? Is there no other solution than to chop off our dicks and strap them onto the women?
------------------
: DDN: "Jesus Christ! What kind of candyass hogwash is this? If I have a problem with feminist movements I'm akin to a mass murderer?"
Kevin: Not in deed, but in beliefs, sure. And you sit here preaching your shit just as Marc Lepine and others have and do. I will not rank you in comparison to him, but you (and I) all have played a role in producing the Marc Lepines of the world, everytime we laugh (or say nothing) when told a sexist joke, everytime we nod knowingly when someone makes a comment such as, "She's asking for it, dressed like that."
DDN: But she often is asking for it dressed like that. Its just not very polite to say so. Who is Marc Lepine?
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: DDN: No, he's just in danger of spending his life in complete misery trying to figure out how to get laid, marrying the wrong woman and losing his house and kids, and dying of a heart attack.
Kevin: Well, the first is his problem for thinking the whole world is about sex and for believing sex is his right. The others are as true for men as for women, except perhaps for the custody issue.
DDN: Well that only leaves the house then, and I challenge you on this - I believe women end up with house much more often than men. And what about the heart attack? You didn't address that at all. You lost points on this round as far as I can tell.
---------------
: DDN: "Eh? I thought the "privileged" class was less than one percent of the world's population. How do you get "average" out of one percent?"
Kevin: Privilege is a relative term. Men, in general, earn more than women. Men, in general, need not be concerned about being raped, about being murdered by their partners, about being physically or sexually abused.
DDN: From the University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada:
"290,000 males are sexually assaulted behind bars every year. By comparison, the Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates that there are 135,000 rapes of women a year nationwide, though many groups believe the number is higher."
http://www.vix.com/pub/men/abuse/usa-prison.html
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Kevin:
.Men, in general, are well represented in government.
DDN: Speak for yourself. I'm not represented worth a DAMN in my government. I'd be put to death by BOTH parties for my views if I had any power.
----------------------------
: DDN: "2) The stats above represent a social problem of massive proportions, but it is just that: A SOCIAL PROBLEM. Blaming it all on men is nothing but a sick, trendy ploy by feminist movements to alleviate themselves of THEIR responsibilities as WOMEN."
Kevin: It is a social problem, and men are the perpetrators. The commonly held male views of women (exposed so nicely in your post, ie: women are loose, sexually and emotionally manipulative,
are hurtful, destructive, and false.
DDN: (Shoot the messenger). False? You think men are more sexually and emotionally manipulative than women? Damn! Where do you live? I'm moving there tomorrow!
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Kevin:
.They are also perpetuated by men such as yourself, and (I dare say) in a lesser way, myself.
:
DDN: They are perpetuated by reality.
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Kevin: Final thought: Wasn't Freud into mother-blaming too?
DDN: Yeah, so? Are you comparing me to Frued?
