Cynic: …..And given that the punishment would be electable BY THE CRIMINAL, there are no grounds on which the position I have presented may be refuted. ………You will, I hope, find this a decent cashing-out of the theory I have proposed. And given that it actually grants the criminal the power of choice in the matter, I can't think of any policy more fair. DDN: Cynic, when we objected to prisoner testing based on the grounds that the justice system was racially biased, you refuted this point on the grounds that racism was a defective thought process. When we objected to prisoner testing based on the physical abuses that occur in prisons, again you refuted this point on the grounds that these physical abuses (accept for capital punishment) were against official prison policies and rules. You even elaborate by adding that people “have observed that they aren't being run in a way that protects what rights prisoners yet possess”.
It seems you are just reinforcing our points. That human beings have defective thought processes, are inclined to break “the rules”, and don’t run prisons in a way that protect prisoners’ rights is exactly why we have objected to “voluntary” prisoner testing. The IRS has a “voluntary compliance” system of taxation. So what? They also have defective thought processes and are inclined to violate civil rights, so if you don’t “voluntarily comply” with the tax code, they come and take your house, your car, and your bank account with no due process of law whatsoever.
Then you proceed to explain how, in your hypothetical world of prisoner testing, people would be capable of “subverting their mental tendencies”, people would become rational, and that mental defects such as racism would be fixed. But how can a rational society, where everyone is free of mental defects and/or is capable of subverting whatever mental defects might arise have a population of MURDERERS AND RAPISTS? - much less, one big enough to significantly displace the massive animal testing market that consumes ten’s of millions of animals every year? I just don’t understand your model. Please explain.
Also, irrational behavior and mental defects are certainly contributors to the health problems that have spawned medical research and hence, animal testing: Alcoholism, drug abuse, smoking, overeating, dumping deadly toxins into our environment, etc. just to name a few examples. Irrationality and mental deficiencies also lead to the use of many unnecessary animal tested products that, in a rational world free of mental defects, would probably become obsolete or be replaced with benign, environmentally friendly, natural alternatives that would not require animal testing in the first place: motor oil, shampoo, household cleaning products, etc.
I guess it would be ok to give the IRS tactical nukes in a rational society free of mental defects, but what would a tax collection agency in such a society need nuclear weapons for? Can we even assume that such a society would need a tax collection agency AT ALL? How can we know how peoples’ needs would be met in such a wonderful world? (I won’t use the word “Utopia” since you find it so distracting). How do we know that people wouldn’t be able to have their needs met without the use of a huge, inefficient wealth distribution system? Wouldn’t that be more “rational”? Wouldn’t that be more representative of a mentally superior society i.e. one that was free of “mental defects”?
You see, Cynic, by asserting that rationality and mental perfection (or something that closely approximates it) are prerequisites for your prisoner testing idea, you have, to some very significant degree, altered the very fabric in which activities like animal testing and violent crime are embedded. You have, in fact, taken the scope of this debate to a level where point value, specifics like animal testing and violent crime might not even EXIST, and, in that regard, all you’ve really accomplished is a change of subject. This leaves you in a debate room limbo between discussing what “Utopia” might look like and how to resolve the animal torture problem with human prisoners.
What really concerns me though is that you may not feel that there is a vast chasm between these two subjects; that routine human vivisections are the kinds of images you receive when you try to imagine a perfect world.
“I can't think of any policy more fair.” - Cynic
If such is the case, there are treatments I could recommend that could help you with the rage and frustration that is behind this kind of thinking. Here’s my email address: waynebollman@yahoo.com. Just let me know if you want help.
