: DDN: So your system of human medical experimentation assumes some enlightened state of humanity where irrational belief systems (like racism) are impossible. That’s a pretty big “WHAT IF”, isn’t it? Cynic: I don't really think so. I'll be an optimist for a change and assert that since everyone is PHYSICALLY capable of living without prejudice, they can subvert whatever mental tendencies their experiences produce. If my systems exclude victims, it's because victims are uninteresting. I am interested principally in survivors.
: DDN: Would animal/human testing even be an issue in such a pristine world? Would we still need health care? Would we even have to eat food? Maybe we would become breatharians. WHAT IF we were all perfect, god-like immortal beings? Would we need to conduct tests of any kind on anything?
Cynic: Each of those things is ridiculous to say. I'll allow you that we can't completely eliminate racism, because you can't control thought. But a system that makes people more accountable for unreasonable behavior (murder, rape thievery) as well as defective thought processes (racism, sexism, or any other unfounded personal hatred) is certainly something we should advocate. Can we police thoughts in people's heads? No, of course not. The potential abuses make it a frightening topic to even speculate about. So that is patently undesirable. But we can make it known that it is morally reprehensible, irresponisble, and NONHUMAN to not be self-policing agents of ourselves. Perhaps we need a Socratic Forum to attend where we can all go to have our personal opinions shattered when they're not up to snuff.
: DDN: I’m not saying we can’t be better as a species or even that we can’t reach some utopian state of perfection and unity with a divine creator, but what’s the point of discussing medical research in such a bloated context? We might as well change the subject completely and talk about what we might do to make ourselves immune from irrational thinking in general – Now THAT would be amusing.
Cynic: Actually, I believe such an overhaul of the system is what I implicitly proposed. We can't eliminate irrational thinking, but it is time we stopped protecting it. It's still been the source of more human misery than poverty and hunger combined. To my sentiment that makes simple-mindedness near criminal.
: DDN: But murdering, raping, and thieving are activities that are confined almost exclusively to humans...
Cynic: I covered this sort of rebuttal earlier in a response to Lark's post. See it there if you are interested. The point of fact is that I agree with you. The comparison was meant to illustrate that if the criteria proposed by humans to separate ourselves from animals includes moral cores, then grossly criminal human beings are not human even by our own standards. I was being tongue-in-cheek in my original post and am regretting it now.
: DDN: Apparently you’ve never been to prison. How did Eddie Murphy put it? “They don’t sodomize you because you LIKE IT. They just do it to see that look on your face.”
Cynic: If it's happening there, it isn't supposed to be. When a prisoner is incarcerated their right to autonomous behavior is stripped for a duration of time. Perhaps right to free speech and communication, as pornography and the like are also banned. But bodily integrity is never, by law, taken from the individual except in cases of capital punishment. The prison system ignores the rulebook- it isn't the rulebooks fault. Prisons where such abuse occurs are coming under the spotlight in media and campaign principally because others have observed that they aren't being run in a way that protects what rights prisoners yet possess.
: DDN: This is atrocious and disgusting. I wonder what kind of sick society this psycho COMES from. It must be a horrible place. Oh shit…..wait a minute….He’s from planet EARTH!!!
Cynic: And so am I and so are you. I've never killed anyone or particiapted in rape, though. Have you? I've certainly seen depictions of it on TV, so I know what it'd look, sound like, etc. Why aren't I running out to do that right this instant, and why aren't you?
: DDN: But seriously Cynic…..My point here is that individual human behavior is, to some significant degree, a product of environmental factors over which the individual often has very little or no control: parents, schools, governments, socio-economic factors, television, books, food, water, air, religion, etc. A dysfunctional idiot like this doesn’t know WHY he did it. He’s obviously mentally disturbed. How can we expect someone this unstable and out of touch to accurately account for his behavior? Why is your decision on this man’s fate based only on one piece of junk data regurgitated from his twisted and degenerate mind?
Cynic: Even if I don't fully trust a criminal's sense of place or time, I do maintain that an individual SHOULD always endevour to conquer their negative experiences and channel them for usefulness. Circumstances cannot excuse future behavior. Also, even if I distrust a criminal's ability to make a competent decision on their own behalf, I have to allow them the benefit of the doubt, or I strip them of the willful freedom I have insisted they have. I must err on the side of optimism for the the shred of reasonableness the person in question has left.
: Also, why are you willing to rehabilitate humanity with regards to its racism but not with regards to its other evils such as murder? If murder is really the unforgivable, uncorrectable, meaningless behavior you denote it to be then why not conduct medical experiments on RACISTS who’s racism has caused millions of murders worldwide?
Cynic: That'd be great! I'd love to be able to police other's thoughts. But I know I could never endorse a system which would. That would be too easily open to abuses, since I don't trust the state usually knows what's best for the citizenry; and it creates a way for the unjust powerful to subvert the weaker and ensure a dominant, if utterly wrong ideology. I'd like ideology to stay a useful construct, so I think I'll avoid its hegemonization at the hands of money, even if it puts deserving racists under the knife.
: DDN: Also, why would we extend the offer of “medical testing in exchange for your freedom” only to murderers? Why should murderers be given an opportunity for freedom but not arsonists, drug dealers, traffic violators, or political prisoners? If murderers are the worst among us then should they have LESS privileges than other prisoners and not MORE?
Cynic: Very insightful, I hadn't thought about it. Yeah, why not? Save the really dangerous research for the murderers, test shampoo acidity on the eyes of pickpockets. To be fair and consistent, I'm all for electable testing as punishment.
: DDN: Can human willpower come up with a better way of handling crime than just imprisonment, gas chambers, and electric chairs? Can your willpower come up with a more evolved solution than dismemberment and canibalism? Can human willpower find a way to live a healthy life without inflicting agonizing and unspeakable pain on animals and other people?
Cynic: I'd say no, that's reason's job. Willpower is necessary for use in the individual sense. It is important we recognize the value inherent in overcoming the ways in which we have been wrong and determine not to extend such injustice on others.
: DDN: If we expect the poorest street kid from the black inner city ghetto with no father, a mother hooked on crack, and no hope for the future to grow up without ever acting out his rage on society then shouldn’t we expect ourselves to overcome our disdain for his violent behavior, perhaps to the degree that we not inflict, nor allow any harm to be inflicted, on him?
Cynic: Nope. He's got a brain in his head and I'll bet it works. I bet he can flip on the television, see life from different, more livable angles and think: "That is what I'd rather have." And if the kid has any degree of self-determination he or she can work at it. With enough effort and a little luck, he could overcome the obstacle of his youth.
The only people who slip, slip voluntarily. It's pure concentrated B.S. when people posit the excuse "But that's all he's ever known!" Did he have blinders on? Never watch television or read a book? Never took a bus out of his neighborhood and saw other human beings doing things besides smoking crack and stealing? I'll bet he did. The many factors affecting children in their youth ENSURE that they should be capable of making competent decisions, not prevent it.
: DDN: Sounds like you’ve got a double standard going on here otherwise?
Cynic: Not that I can see. I feel for the kid you just described, and I want to see him succeed and overcome it. If he doesn't it's because he let himself down. I can't pity the condition of those who won't help themselves.
: DDN: That’s just plain sad, Cynic. We’ve reached an impasse here; one that I think can only be traversed with some probing psychoanalysis. I’ll forego such analysis for now and note only that you sound like a seriously unhappy person and that I’m sorry for whatever happened to you that got you in this bad headspace.
Cynic: Nothing happened to me save to be taught my behavior is attributable only to me. Things out of my past can only affect me if I let them.
Cynic: ... Having undergone trauma is not grounds for perpetuating it.
: DDN: Actually, Cynic, yes it is. We’ve been closely observing victims of trauma very closely for several decades and it became abundantly clear quite some time ago that the minds of trauma victims unconsciously work (and work OVERTIME) to recreate past traumatic experiences in the present. Theories vary as to WHY this occurs but I don’t think any respectable mental health expert would refute that it DOES. It may very well be the mind’s attempt to heal itself – reliving the trauma again and again in an attempt to “make the story come out right”, rescue parts of the mind that were shut down in response to the trauma, regain perceived lost control of one’s physical safety.
Cynic: And people can exercise their volition and seek counseling, if their condition is so miserable. We can always work to better ourselves. People who won't try, determine they can't try (when it's obvious to anyone else that they could) and then use their problems to justify hitting kids, smoking crack, whoring for money, etc., aren't making use of their own potential. It's deplorable, and in cases where it affects others, thus damaging them so that they too must conquer new demons... I must sigh because it burdens me so and shake my head. How disturbingly wrong.
: DDN: I know a thing or two about phenomena like this having been diagnosed and treated by several highly respected health professionals from various corners of the mental health profession as suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Basically it means that I am stuck in a hyper alert mode – a residue from a time in my life when I needed to be hyper alert in order to survive. I found a counselor that specialized in treating this disorder and he was able to help me a great deal, but I’ll probably always be at least a little fucked up the rest of my life.
Cynic: You chose treatment. Good for you.
: DDN: The point is that being inappropriately alert in certain situations is not something I consciously chose to do. It doesn’t require my consciousness AT ALL – it happens ALL BY ITSELF. For all intents and purposes, there is another person running around inside of my head with his own separate agenda, making decisions and doing and saying things that I don’t approve of at all. I have established a line of communication with the little fucker but we still have our differences and we’re trying our best to resolve them.
Cynic: But you are to be commended for having recognized a problem and attempted to best it. You are not the examples I cited before. You are infinately their superior.
: DDN: In the meantime, I make “mistakes”: say the wrong thing, overreact, make incorrect assumptions about people and situations – things that we all do but with a little more intensity behind it. So, you see, I AM exerting a tremendous amount of will over the situation, but I still do things that are wrong, so where does that leave us, Cynic?
Cynic: You're trying. I think we can endeavor to understand the situation of people who try. There are many who don't though.. the degree of their behavior makes it abundantly clear to me, if not to you as well. What errors of perception ever make forcible rape sound ok to someone? Your situation, you must allow, is a benign example compared to the socipathy I am taking a stand against.
: DDN: Do I “deserve” additional suffering?
Cynic: Only if you stop exerting effort and submit to your troubles.
: DDN: Am “I” 100% responsible for my actions? Did I cause my own original trauma?
Cynic: I doubt it. But even the abused wife that refuses to leave her husband is not the "cause" of the trauma. She is guilty of staying, however, thus allowing her abuser to continue victimizing her. That is akin to sanctioning the abuse. That's a horrible failure of will and self-respect. I think I do right to speak against it, and also to help any woman in that situation I may know to help her realize what she's doing to herself.
: DDN: But the bottom line is that YOU simply do not and CANNOT know the answers to these questions well enough to make a final, once and for all judgement about how my bad behavior should be viewed.
Cynic: Wait. If I were you, I'd have this knowledge correct? I'd know all of your background and know how it feels to be inside your head. So, while I don't know, it is true, the nature of your circumstances, I refuse to believe it is something I could not know. You have been vague about telling us about them. I am not interested in them only so far as it protects your privacy. If you'd done something horribly wrong, I'd be asking all sorts of questions.
: DDN: So get off your high horse. You’d suffocate to death in seconds if you were judged by your own standards.
Cynic: I do judge myself by my own standards. Harshly. My interior critic is so seldom abating that I evaluate possibilities more than I act. I yet live. I live well. If others had nearly as much capacity for eslf-judgement as I did, they might be better off.
: DDN: Then there should be a law against your “blame the victim” mentally because I find it morally reprehensible.
Cynic: I don't engage in victim-blaming. I ask you:
"Does the woman who refuses to leave an abusive spouse, in ANY degree, bring further abuse upon herself?"
I realize her only acocuntability is her lack of self-control. But had she any, she'd suffer less. I think that is convincing and forceful, so praytell why can't you?
