S: Well for one thing, I tried posting over a week ago. I don't know what I did wrong but it didn't go through. Secondly, we keep going around in circles, you and I. We both keep saying the same thing over and overDDN: Yes. That’s mostly because you keep evading my questions and not acknowledging my points regarding your contradictory statements. (I believe you about the posting problem – I had the same experience around the same time.)
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::DDN: 1) You've stated several times that there is nothing I can do to be saved but you have also stated several times that there are things (or THING) I MUST do in order to be saved. SO......which is it? Are there things I CAN do to be saved, MUST do to be saved, or is there NOTHING at all I can do to be saved?
Shaun: I'll say it again. Only Jesus saves. In order for Him to save you have to 1)Admit you are a sinner 2)Believe Jesus is Lord and 3)Repent
DDN: 2 points to make here:
1) You have just explained that there ARE things I MUST do in order to be saved (strong emphasis on uppercased words), but previously you’ve stated that there was NOTHING I could do to be saved i.e. that Jesus had to do ALL of it FOR me. Don’t you see a contradiction here? It seems clear that this claim of yours is false i.e. There ARE things I can do (and in fact MUST do) in order to be saved, namely: admit I am a sinner, believe Jesus is Lord, and repent. Are you then in agreement with the following statement:
Anyone who says that there is nothing I can do to save myself is sorely mistaken.
2) You’ve previously specified many different sets of requirements for getting saved by Jesus. Here are a few:
Set 1: So God sent his son to show his love for us
and anyone who believes in Him shall be saved.
In this scenario all I have to do to be saved is
“believe in Him”.
Set 2: Just like it says in the Bible: believe in your
heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is
Lord and you will be saved.
In THIS scenario all I have to do is believe in my
heart that Jesus Lord and confess with my
mouth that Jesus is Lord.
Set 3: Pray. And read the Bible, and confess your sins and
believe He is the Lord.
In THIS scenario I have to pray, read the bible,
confess my sins, and believe He is
Lord.
And now you have replaced these with yet a FOURTH set of
instructions:
Set 4: Admit you are a sinner, Believe Jesus is Lord, Repent
Yes, there is some overlap in these instruction sets, but
clearly they are not all identical. There are
some distinct differences between them.
For example: Where is “admitting you are a sinner” in sets
1 and 2? Is admitting you are a sinner a requirement or not?
Where is “read the bible in Set 1,2 and 4? Is reading the bible a requirment for salvation or not?
The point I’m trying to make here is, since
these instruction sets contradict each other, some of them must be INCORRECT (or errant). More importantly, should you be negligently handing out incorrect instructions for people to follow when they might be depending on these incorrect instructions in order to escape ETERNAL DAMNATION?
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::DDN: Are all Jews that have lived and died after the arrival of Christ now in eternal Hell?
Shaun: All people, no matter who they are,who have heard the gospel and did not believe will not enter Heaven……..
DDN: Again, 2 points to make here:
1) But don’t you have to believe the gospel even if you HAVEN’T heard it in order to get into heaven?
2) How MUCH of the gospel are we talking about here? In other words, if I only ever heard one sentence from the gospel and still did not “believe” (perhaps due to lack of context), would I still be going to hell? That hardly seems just. How about 2 sentences? How about a whole page? Every other word from every other sentence? – such a reading wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense to anyone but wouldn’t it still constitute “having heard the gospel”?
Could I hear 99.9% of the gospel, still not believe in it, and still get into heaven? What if I fulfilled all 4 sets of the salvation requirements given above then rejected some biblical verses that did not pertain to these requirements (such as the verses discussing marriage)?
Have I really “heard the gospel” or adequately “heard the gospel” if I have not heard every single word of it? Are there then parts of the gospel that don’t really need to be heard?
I know the bible does not cover this level of detail, so how are we to know the answers to these questions. Any other sources of information that might answer these questions must be rejected out of hand because, according to YOU, “if the bible doesn’t say it, don’t believe it”.
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Shaun: …..It's in the Bible. If you want, I can tell you some Bible verses in a seperate post that point the way to salvation, that is, if you want to read the bible (some of your earlier posts made it seem like you have no interest in the Bible.
DDN: I do have an interest in the Bible and I have read it front to back. I understood very little of it, and so, as you yourself have recommended, I’ve ventured out to ask other people for help as I am doing now. But now you are sending me back to the Bible. Some people would refer to this as “the old run-around”.
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DDN: 3) Clearly there are languages that the Bible has not been translated into (as demonstrated by Nikhil and Floyd in our thread below). If you have to be born again to get into heaven, and you have to know Jesus to be born again, and you have to read the Bible to know Jesus, how are people that speak such languages supposed to get into heaven?
Shaun: Of course. There are missionaries in ever country who are bringing the gospel of Jesus to people who have never heard it before. Eventually, the gospel will be available to people of every language.
DDN: EVENTUALLY?!!. What do you mean, EVENTUALLY?! How about right NOW, shaun? If I speak only a language that the bible has not yet been translated into and I died this evening, where am I going? Heaven or hell? I’m not going to let you dodge this one.
Also, we’ve already been over this. We proved to you that there were languages that the bible COULD NOT feasibly be translated into because they had no written forms. What about the people who speak those languages. (Why do I get the feeling I’ve asked this question before?)
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::DDN: 4) You've said that I have to be born again in order to know Jesus. You've also said that I have to know Jesus in order to be born again. Clearly this is a catch 22. How am I supposed to accomplish either assignment (getting born again or knowing Jesus) if both are prerequisites for the other?
Shaun: The last two questions were basically the same thing. There is a difference between knowing about Jesus and knowing Jesus. Everybody knows about Jesus (except for the few people who live in isolated areas and speak rare languages like you pointed out before. And like I said, those people will get to hear the gospel). To be born again and to know Jesus as your Savior is the same thing.
DDN: Then it seems like a pretty misleading thing to tell someone that they have to accomplish one of these tasks before they can accomplish the other when, in fact, once they have accomplished one of these tasks, they have ALREADY and SIMULTANEOUSLY accomplished the other. Again, shouldn’t christians get their story straight before they go around dispensing misinformation and perhaps jeopardizing someone’s salvation?
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DDN: 5) You've stated that, in order to be saved and get into heaven, I have to confess to God in the form of Jesus. But you've also said that God is not currently IN the form of Jesus, so how am I supposed to make my confession?
Shaun: Prayer. God can hear you.
DDN: But you said that my confession had to be made to Jesus, not to God.
Shaun: I made my confession when I was 17 at a youth retreat. I was in prayer, and I accepted Jesus as my Savior. For the first time I was filled with the Holy Spirit. To answer your last question, yes there was somethingI did to get this special attention. I prayed. I asked Jesus to save me from sin. You can do it to.
DDN: Acknowledged.
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DDN: 6) Are you (Shaun) "born again" OR are you a "worldy sinner"? Ealier you made distinction between these two things that made it impossible for you to be both. Yet you have claimed to be born again AND have also claimed to have sinned since being born again (in fact you said that it was impossible NOT to sin even after being born again). So which is it? Maybe you are a sinner but not a "worldly sinner"? Are you then an "etheric sinner" or perhaps a "heavenly sinner"? Please explain.
Shaun: Everyone is a sinner. Once you become born again, every sin you ever commited is forgiven. Even though you are now a Christian, you will not be perfect (we can't attain perfection untill we get to heaven) We live in a sin filled world, therefore we will still be tempted, and sometimes fall to sin.
DDN: Great. So YOU are a sinner (one who sins), correct? Earlier you stated that you were no longer a “worldly” sinner. Since you are a sinner but you are not a “worldly” sinner, does that mean that you are not of this world? (This will be the third time I have asked you this question. Are you ever going to answer it?)
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DDN: 7) What constitutes a "sinful lifestyle"? How often can I sin (and to what degree) without being seen by God as living a "sinful lifestyle"?
Shaun: Living without Jesus, without your sins forgiven is a sinful lifestyle
DDN:
1) Well, not according to McChick (see her thread). She says that ANY sinning at all constitutes a “sinful lifstyle”. I would be very curious to see you to work this out together. Please reply to her post if you have time.
2) So……I can sin my ass off (rape, pillage, murder, steal, etc.) and I would still be considered ok by God as long as I did so “with Jesus”?
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DDN: 8) You've stated that the Bible is "crystal clear" (particularly on matters of salvation). But you have also stated that one must sometimes read it over again or ask someone for help in understanding it. Do you really believe it is fair to refer to a text as being "crystal clear" that has to be reread (perhaps many times) or that one must seek outside consultation on in order to understand? If so, how would you classify the instructions on a can of soda ("Pull Tab") or the on a traffic sign ("Left Lane Merges"). Would you refer to these instructions as "crystal clear"? Why? Do you have to reread them or ask for help in order to understand them? No? Then shouldn't we refer to these instructions as being "extra super duper crystal clear"?
Shaun: Well, the Bible was written thousands of years ago, so it may be a little hard to understand some of the words and phrases they used at the time (such as any word we use today with "th" added at the end) However, aside from these small things, the Bible is still accurate and easy to understand. Give me some of the passages you are having trouble with.
DDN: Please answer my other questions first. Some of them I have asked three or four times and still not received an answer from you. I have hundreds of biblical errancies and contradictions to discuss with you but I’m not going to go there until you have shown me that you have the balls and sincerity to answer these questions.
None.
