: I think you misinterpreted some of Red's sarcasm.: What is with our society's obsession with incarceration and punishment? It has long been accepted among psychologists (a relatively conservative group of people) that punishment DOES NOT TEACH LESSONS. It simply does not work. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a worse way of getting someone to change their ways.
You are partially right. Yes, there are people that will never change thier ways no matter how much punishment they receive. On the otherhand, it is foolish to think that there are not any people who, after spending time in jail, turn from there life of crime because they don't want to get locked up again. As for the people who punishment will not work on, they should still be in jail anyway because even if it doesn't teach them anything, at least it keeps us safe from them. They cant kill anyone else or rob any more stores while they're locked up.
: We need to stop focusing on after-the-fact treatments (which don't work anyways... consider recidivism rates, and maybe volunteer to spend a few months in jail if you still think they help the problem). We need instead to focus on the roots of the problems. Why do people do what they do? (Some example answers might include poverty, violence in the media, too easy access to firearms and so forth) How can we ADDRESS these issues so that the problems don't ever arise? (Some solutions might include fighting inequality, homelessness, poverty, and abuse; speaking out against violent entertainment, and demanding media responsibility for violent content; stricter gun-control legislation; peer mediation and community support programs and counselling services)
I agree with you that prevention would work better that punishment after the fact, and you listed some good examples. Most criminals come from families that are criminals. Then thier kids and thier kids' kids etc... become criminals. It's a cycle. Most people born into a family like that are taught from a young age that drugs are ok, and to get money for drugs you rob somebody. These poor innocent kids turn out exactly like thier parents. The best way to prevent this is to go after the criminal parents of young kids. Kids learn more from thier family than anyone else in the world combined. Of course stricter gun laws, peer mediation, sports programs, DARE etc... will help, but all these things are almost useless if the parents are free to commit crimes and not be punished for it.
: Our methods of dealing with crime are akin to our methods of dealing with health: after the fact. Find a cure for cancer and heart disease so we can keep eating shit and polluting our lungs. Hmmm.... seems to me the simplest and most cost-effective way to address the problem is to educate and change our lifestyles. But is this where the FOCUS is? No. The focus is on cures. Where is the money and energy better spent?
: We must struggle free from this mentality which is effectively driving us to buy extra bandages for the house rather than taking the sharp, pointy objects away from toddlers.
: In your post you mention the "scumbag addict and welfare abuser." This attitude sickens me. My parents are alcoholics, but they are hardly scumbags. I have had friends addicted to drugs before, but they are not scumbags.
I didn't say alcoholocis are scumbags. I didn't say drug addicts are scumbags (although most of them are, and I am saying that now) I said the scumbags are the people who are alcoholics and druggies and child abusers etc...
:As for welfare abuser, stop perpetuating the stereotype, it only leads to hatred.
You are jumping to conclusions. I never stereotyped welfare recipients or spoke out against them. I spoke out against people who abuse the welfare system, and there are many. Welfare is supposed to be only a temporary tool used to give people a leg up. The whole point of it is to keep a roof over thier heads and food on the table while they are looking for a job or go to college. When they find a job then they get off welfare. That's the way it is supposed to be. However, there are people who use welfare and food stamps to buy drugs and alcohol. I have nothing at all against alcohol, but there is something wrong when
people are buying liquor with welfare and food stamps when they have starving children at home. If you disagree with me there then you are nothing less than a cold hearted monster. I'm sorry if thats harsh, but there is no reason why impoverished kids have to suffer further because the crack addict parents need just "one more high" or one more drink. Another form of welfare abuse is when the recipient fails to even try to get a job. Even if it's only a $6 or $7 an hour job at Burger King or a gas station, they would be taking home a check bigger probably than what welfare gives them, plus they have a chance to go from there to a higher position in the company or to a better job completely. Many people do this; this is the point of welfare. But again, some of them are lazy and don't want to work.
:Welfare abuse is SIGNIFICANTLY less common than income tax cheating, and the money lost is pitifully small in comparison.
You are probably right about that. Welfare cheating and income tax cheating are both wrong and punishments for both should be harsh. They cost you and I billions. All that wasted money could be put to better use.
:Why then must we be suspicious of the whole lot of welfare recipients, many (most?) of whom are victims of society, while those who victimize society (the wealthy and middle class) continue to abuse the taxation system.
Read above. I'm not suspicious of the whole lot of welfare recipients. Some of them are legit. And for the cheating on taxes, that too should be dealt with, after all it is costing me and you money.
:Worse still, they are already favoured legitimately by this system. The extra ten thousand dollars they save on tax breaks may buy them a new boat. It might, however, have gone to feed a family for the year. I guess you like picking on the underdogs, and I guess your sacred tennet of "Judge not, lest ye be judged" only rings true when YOU say it to OTHERS.
I'm not judging others. I am just telling it the way it is. People who break the law should be punished, that's all I'm saying.
:I don't want any scumbag drug addict child abusing welfare abusing thieving alcoholic living in my neighborhood.
Thats right. If you had kids, would you be happy about having a crackhouse or a child molestor next door? I don't and probably no one else does either. And I don't think that a welfare abuser ( I never ever once said welfare user, so I don't know where your getting this idea I'm against welfare recipients) should be allowed to get away with there crime either.
:The three strikes law is a good way of telling those people either you clean up your act or you spend the rest of your life in jail, you choose.
: By the way, where do you get off deciding who should or should not be a member of society? I thought we all were by default. I know no one asked me. I wasn't even given a choice. Where do I go if I opt out? Jail, I suppose, in your messed up mind. You frighten me with your self-righteous doctrine of hate.
I don't hate anyone. I just believe that people who knowingly break the law (murderers, rapists, thieves, drug addicts, child abusers etc...)should be put in jail because it will cure some of them and it will keep them off the streets, keeping us safe. If anyone here hates, it's you. You are the one who thinks criminals should run free. Do you hate the 99% of regular citizens who are at risk of the criminals because you believe no one should be in jail? You have so much compassion for the poor criminals but you really don't care about thier victims, do you? I believe in forgiveness for a couple reasons, one being that there is always hope that one day a criminal will change thier ways and become a productive member of society. I believe everyone deserves that chance. But really, how many chances should one person get before we all realize they will not change? By saying criminals belong in jail is not hate- it's just showing a little concern for innocent people on the streets.
:Pretty harsh, isn't it, to say someone doesn't even deserve freedom? ("People who shouldn't be even allowed to be in society are, and they are committing more crimes. They don't even deserve freedom.")
It's not harsh. Criminals should not be allowed to roam freely on the streets untill they decide they don't want to kill, rape, steal etc... anymore
: Whatever happened to walking a mile in others' shoes? You seem to be suggesting there is no REASON why people commit crimes. They just are bad, evil people. End of story.
No, the reason why they commit crimes is not because they were born that way. We were all the same way. They learn from example. They see mom and dad running from the cops, robbing stores and they think its a good idea so they drop out of school and do the same thing. I'm not saying they are victims though. When they are children, they're victims. But when they are all grown up and make there own decisions, I don't feel sorry for them anymore. I just feel sorry for thier victims. They all know they can do what's right. But maybe they are lazy and don't want to go to school, have a job or whatever.
:(If you don't believe this, why do you not suggest addressing these REASONS, to avoid these problems?) If you do believe this, then I guess you are saying that there are more "bad" african americans and first nations people.
No, I don't believe people are born evil. We all start out with a clean slate, but we all do wrong (some more than others) and we need forgiveness and we need to right our wrongs for the slate to be wiped clean.
: Remember, they are over-represented in the american (and canadian) prison systems. Is it 'cause there are more of them who are inherently evil, or is it because of some experiential factors? If the latter, why not address these? Please help me to understand your anger.
Why is there an over representation of black americans in prison than whites? I don't have a clue. I think the most obvious guess is that, unfortunately there is too much racism in the system. Some cops (certainly not most) are harsher on blacks than whites or latinos. Even more so, jury's may be harsher on blacks than whites. Who knows what kind of people are on any jury? The problem with the jury system is that for all you know, any or all members of that jury could be some idiot racist resulting in an automatic guilty verdict.
