Day 239 - 23 Apr 96 - Page 17

     
     1        Do you stand by that statement?
     2        A.   Yes, I do.
     3
     4   Q.   The fourth addendum is dated 12th April, 1996:
     5
     6        "I am prepared to interpret maps showing the types and
     7        distribution of vegetation in Brazil for the benefit of the
     8        Court.  I have visited areas of cerrado vegetation and
     9        zones describes as "areas of ecological tension (or
    10        contact)" and I can explain the significance and physical
    11        characteristics of the vegetation types listed.  I can also
    12        discuss the ecological implications of cattle ranching in
    13        these zones.
    14
    15        Having seen the maps provided by McDonald's, I am of the
    16        opinion that their suppliers to Cuiaba in 1979-82 reared
    17        cattles in areas which could reasonably be described as
    18        biodiverse tropical forest.
    19
    20        The statement by senor Morganti that "none of those areas
         was occupied by small farmers" (paragraph 9) does not
    22        correspond to my experience.  My understanding is that
    23        small farmers were sparsely scattered in the areas of Mato
    24        Grosso do Sul and Goias now used for cattle ranching."
    25
    26        You say that happened to cattle ranching.  What happened to
    27        small farmers?
    28        A.   It follows a pattern well established in Brazil for a
    29        long time of expulsions, often violent expulsions, and
    30        people would either move on into the cities or up into the
    31        Amazon.  The Amazon -- I suppose one phrase for it has been
    32        a sort of "social dustbin", that people who have lost their
    33        livelihoods, by one means or another, have gone, often with
    34        Government encouragement, into the Amazon area to go and
    35        become pioneers and supposedly become part of the brave new
    36        future of Brazil but often end up in miserable conditions
    37        having cleared part of the rainforest and not being able to
    38        grow much there.
    39
    40   Q.   "It is also inaccurate to state that this was "virgin
         land."   The presence of indigenous (Amerindian) people
    42        throughout these states was well-documented.  Many people
    43        (especially of tribes such as the Guarani) attempted small
    44        scale agricultural and cattle-rearing (often acquired by
    45        example from the outsiders in their land), but many of
    46        these enterprises came to an end as large ranches expanded
    47        swallowing up the lands they were using. Both Amerindians
    48        and small-scale farmers were expelled, often by the most
    49        brutal means.  Even today, in cattle-ranching areas all
    50        over the country, smaller ranchers, peasant farmers  and 
    51        Indians are forcibly and often violently expelled from 
    52        their lands by bigger and more powerful proprietors 
    53        expanding their property."
    54
    55        Just in case it is not completely clear, where do the
    56        Indians go if they are thrown off their land?
    57        A.   Well, there is a whole variety of things.  Many of the
    58        Indians are in one way or another assimilated.  They join
    59        the other fugitives from the area and often become peasants
    60        or peasant-like people themselves and they may join the