Day 131 - 06 Jun 95 - Page 12

     
     1        in accord with the spirit of the paragraph you have just
     2        read out.
     3
     4   Q.   Tell us, please, in your own words, what you feel to be the
     5        best way of safeguarding the health and safety of the
     6        employees in an organisation such as McDonald's, bearing in
     7        mind it is a specific kind of operation?
     8        A.  Yes, indeed.  Health and safety has to be integrated
     9        into the organisation until it just becomes an accepted
    10        part of what is done.  You need to ensure that health and
    11        safety is talked about, that it is on the agenda, that
    12        management are seen to take action on health and safety
    13        matters, and to encourage a positive attitude in the people
    14        carrying out the tasks.
    15
    16        Health and safety must not be seen as something separate,
    17        something special, a concern of one department only.  It
    18        must be seen clearly to rest with the mainstream management
    19        function of the organisation.  That, I believe, is what the
    20        Health and Safety Executive consider developing a safety
         culture.
    22
    23   Q.   Is training, then -- you have told us that you, yourself,
    24        have taught McDonald's people -- an essential part of it?
    25        A.  It is, indeed.
    26
    27   Q.   How effective do you think McDonald's training procedures
    28        are?
    29        A.  I think McDonald's are very effective.  If you take
    30        things like the task-based training they undertake, the
    31        very fact that you teach someone the right way to do a
    32        task, integrate health and safety into it, and the
    33        following of a standard procedure is, in itself, a safety
    34        measure.  If you look at training across the board, I think
    35        they are very effective at communicating the particular
    36        message.
    37
    38   Q.   As between the two ways of approaching accidents,
    39        prevention and anticipation, if you like, and reaction to
    40        particular accidents or kinds of accidents, is there a role
         for both of those approaches?
    42        A.  Well, indeed.  In any organisation, obviously, one has
    43        to react to any situation that occurs.  Such activities as
    44        accident investigation are obviously important.  However,
    45        that must not be the main thrust of a safety organisation.
    46        The main thrust of a safety organisation should be
    47        preventative and seeking to prevent the accidents in the
    48        first place.  But it is a blend of the two.
    49
    50   Q.   How, in your view, does McDonald's structure, health and 
    51        safety structure, measure up to those standards that you 
    52        have just ---- 
    53        A.  I take it you are thinking of the structure of
    54        Jill Barnes' department?
    55
    56   Q.   Yes.
    57        A.  I think it measures up very well.  The difficulty with
    58        any major company, any major multi-sited company, is that
    59        obviously one looks at resources to do a task like that.
    60        It is a balance all the time between having enough people