Day 019 - 27 Jul 94 - Page 12

     
     1        as well, they go together through this machine.
 
     2   MS. STEEL:   The chick could be macerated alive?
              A.  Absolutely.  Now, for the chicks which have hatched,
     3        if my memory serves me right, they use carbon dioxide at
              Sun Valley, but please check that out with Dr. Pattison.
     4
         Q.   Is that something you would consider humane?
     5        A.  I am very concerned about the use of carbon dioxide as
              a means of killing chicks from a welfare point of view.
     6
         Q.   Why are you concerned?
     7        A.  Two basics reasons; one is when carbon dioxide is
              inhaled at high concentrations, the type of concentration
     8        that would be used in this situation would be at or close
              to 100 per cent, the gas can be an irritant.  This is
     9        based on observations both in poultry species and also in
              man.  That is one.  So, in fact, in man the perception is
    10        pungency.  It is a mild pungency by my personal rating.
 
         The second feature is that prior to the loss of
              consciousness, there is a rather, I would say, a profound
    12        sense of breathlessness experienced.
 
    13   Q.   So it would be unpleasant?
              A.  Yes.
    14
         Q.   Very unpleasant?
    15        A.  Putting those two together, there has been research
              work which has shown that carbon dioxide gas is aversive
    16        to poultry and also to pigs.  Can I add a comment?
 
    17   Q.   Yes.
              A.  In that respect, I think that maceration could be
    18        preferable, although aesthetically it may be
              objectionable, provided maceration is performed
    19        efficiently, such that it causes extensive trauma to the
              brain instantaneously.  The reason for my visit to Sun
    20        Valley hatchery was to look at their macerator to see how
              good it was, to talk to them about the problems of
         changing from carbon dioxide to maceration.
 
    22   Q.   Right.
              A.  They were very receptive to my comments.
    23
         Q.   Is there any way of ensuring that the macerator does cause
    24        extensive trauma to the brain instantaneously?
              A.  Not in an objective way, no, only by using your eyes,
    25        observing what happens and how quickly it happens.
  
    26   Q.   Right.  But you could not put your figures in? 
              A.  We have produced a set of criteria which we think 
    27        macerators should uphold, and we presented those to the
              Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food.
    28
         Q.   Do Sun Valley uphold those?
    29        A.  No, they are quite close with their macerator, a lot
              closer than other people who do use macerators, but they
    30        were not perfect.  Then I must add they do not use it on
              whole chicks i.e. hatched chicks.  They do not use